# 178 versus 158 tail **URL:** \ **Category:** Prone Surf Foiling\ **Created:** [April 4, 2025, 5:17pm UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/178-versus-158-tail/9357 "2025-04-04T17:17:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Brunst](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forum.progressionproject.com/brunst/32/15045_2.png) [@Brunst](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/Brunst)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2025, 5:17pm UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/178-versus-158-tail/9357/1 "2025-04-04T17:17:47Z")
Kujira 980 which tail which one shoud i get? i have a 220. but the foil feels very slow. will any of these tails improve the foil significantly? ---
**Author:** ![Velocicraptor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Velocicraptor](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/Velocicraptor)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2025, 5:23pm UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/178-versus-158-tail/9357/2 "2025-04-04T17:23:10Z")
220 was a dog - Slow, locked, only thing it did well for me was low end. I cut it up and it helped a little bit with the locked in turns, but still wasn’t very fun. 178 is a GOAT tail - 100x better than the 220 and was a favorite tail for many of my setups for a long time. Very stable and intuitive, turns great, not fast, but fast enough (much faster than the 220). Never rode the 158, but Ive heard its just a smaller/faster 178. On a foil like the 980 or 1095, the 178 (or 158) will open it up sigificantly. ---
**Author:** ![FoilFondler](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forum.progressionproject.com/foilfondler/32/299_2.png) [@FoilFondler](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/FoilFondler)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2025, 6:41pm UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/178-versus-158-tail/9357/3 "2025-04-04T18:41:15Z")
At the time I was intimidated by the 158 and sold it since the 178 was working so well. But now the biggest silk tail is 152, which I love so maybe I was missing something. And yes I had various 220’s all chopped at various bumps, and I only used the smallest, second bump I think. ---
**Author:** ![Paul](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forum.progressionproject.com/paul/32/12518_2.png) [@Paul](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/Paul)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2025, 7:32pm UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/178-versus-158-tail/9357/4 "2025-04-04T19:32:09Z")
I ride 1095 with the 158 and 178 and 220. The 158 is a lot more playful than the 178. When I first got the 1095, it was my first \<1750sqcm wing, and I kept the 178 on it, but 1.5 years later, I’m on the Axis fireball 1070 (877sqcm) / skinny 362/50 - or the 1095/158. The 178 has not come into play this year. The 1095/158 is more surfy than the 1070/skinny 362/50, but other than that, they feel similar. The 220 is very slow and stable in comparison. ---
**Author:** ![Pump\_Pump.go](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/779978/32.png) [@Pump\_Pump.go](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/Pump_Pump.go)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2025, 11:37pm UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/178-versus-158-tail/9357/5 "2025-04-04T23:37:25Z")
I have ridden both tails extensively on the 980. I prefer the 158 for winging, it is looser and does not have the excessive lift on steeper wave that the 178 can have. Prone I prefer the 178 for the increase low end drive and pump ---
**Author:** ![froggerdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/cc9497/32.png) [@froggerdave](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/froggerdave)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2025, 2:36am UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/178-versus-158-tail/9357/6 "2025-04-05T02:36:38Z")
I’ve ridden v1 kujiras since they came out four years ago and agree with all of the above. 220 is terrible, slow, stable. I love the 178 on the 1210 and the 158 on the 980. With both of these setups, I do a -1.5 shim in the tails and it really unlocks them. Still haven’t found a better setup (though I have a feeling the AFS is what I’ll be on next….). ---
**Author:** ![Brunst](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forum.progressionproject.com/brunst/32/15045_2.png) [@Brunst](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/Brunst)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2025, 3:18pm UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/178-versus-158-tail/9357/7 "2025-04-07T15:18:23Z")
Guess i will go for the 158 and enjoy the set up then think of trying the other set up ---
**Author:** ![Brunst](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forum.progressionproject.com/brunst/32/15045_2.png) [@Brunst](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/Brunst)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2025, 3:19pm UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/178-versus-158-tail/9357/8 "2025-04-07T15:19:49Z")
Thank to all active members of the forum and this great responses from all ---
**Author:** ![wingNC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/74df32/32.png) [@wingNC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/wingNC)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2025, 9:56pm UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/178-versus-158-tail/9357/9 "2025-04-07T21:56:51Z")
What do you mean ‘unlocks’? I’m running a kdm chopped tail and wondering what shimming might do for it. Can you remind me which is negative vs positive in tail shimming? Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![froggerdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/cc9497/32.png) [@froggerdave](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/froggerdave)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2025, 10:31pm UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/178-versus-158-tail/9357/10 "2025-04-07T22:31:07Z")
Hey! So I was trying to reduce any possible drag between the front foil and the rear tail angles of attack. So when I am negative shimming the tail, I’m decreasing overall lift and making the tail angle more flat/horizontal. When I say unlock, I felt like it gave me more speed, more glide, better turning, and less drag. The cost is quite a bit of unstable, which doesn’t bother me at all, and I actually like it. Does that make sense? I’ve only had limited experience with a K D tails and that was with the blunt. I rode it for two sessions and sold it because it was very draggy for me on the Kujiras. ---
**Author:** ![FoilFondler](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forum.progressionproject.com/foilfondler/32/299_2.png) [@FoilFondler](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/FoilFondler)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2025, 10:55pm UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/178-versus-158-tail/9357/11 "2025-04-07T22:55:06Z")
I wonder how aeronauticaly literate people describe this, but tail shimming is can be very confusing if you aren’t careful. For example: if the top/flat side is flat relative to the fuse, that’s actually creating a lot of negative lift. To have less negative lift, and less drag, the trailing edge needs to be adjusted downward or leading edge up, as seen when in use, however makes sense depending on top or bottom mount. When people say “I shimmed +1°”, I never really know what they mean unless there is context. More of the lift tails make, which is negative? Or more lift, like -5+1=-4. ---
**Author:** ![wingNC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/74df32/32.png) [@wingNC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/wingNC)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2025, 11:01pm UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/178-versus-158-tail/9357/12 "2025-04-07T23:01:53Z")
Cool! Thanks! I think that makes sense. Are you winging or prone? This helped too. [https://youtu.be/f2k1FAwfIGk?si=i1c4haYiO18UntfK](https://youtu.be/f2k1FAwfIGk?si=i1c4haYiO18UntfK) I’m trying to figure out my position for the 980 on a new dw board setup. There are so many places to put the foil and stand its tricky to get dialed in. ---
**Author:** ![FoilFondler](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forum.progressionproject.com/foilfondler/32/299_2.png) [@FoilFondler](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/FoilFondler)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2025, 11:05pm UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/178-versus-158-tail/9357/13 "2025-04-07T23:05:01Z")
I’ve found that if I eyeball the tail from the rear along the line of the fuse, factory generally shows three lines: top surface, bottom surface, and the trailing edge in between them but much closer to the flat top side. Trailing edge splitting it into maybe 1/5. In extreme cases, maybe older axis tails as I recall, the top surface can’t be seen, so lots of drag. (Is that why they have smaller tails now? Idk I don’t have axis anymore). These days I like to see it look more like 1/3-1/4. ---
**Author:** ![FoilFondler](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forum.progressionproject.com/foilfondler/32/299_2.png) [@FoilFondler](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/FoilFondler)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2025, 11:15pm UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/178-versus-158-tail/9357/14 "2025-04-07T23:15:10Z")
Kd race tail on afs fuse. He says in his site they are tuned for less drag, and indeed more top surface is visible. I drew the line to show the trailing edge. It’s eyeball but I find it gets very close when playing around. ![IMG_5090](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/uploads/progressionproject/original/2X/3/33952014fc4dfd79cdca2673c08e6e38f9497f31.jpeg) ---
**Author:** ![FoilFondler](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forum.progressionproject.com/foilfondler/32/299_2.png) [@FoilFondler](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/FoilFondler)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2025, 11:35pm UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/178-versus-158-tail/9357/15 "2025-04-07T23:35:25Z")
Theoretically both but fd has stolen all my prone psych atm. But I’ve learned that kujira and afs like to carry speed, so I’m not tuning differently btwn any disciplines. I learned on Takuma LOL, then kujira, then bought a wake thief axis 1150, and was amazed by how draggy that tail was. I think Takuma/afs really likes slippery tails. I didn’t know that when I sold the 158. ---
**Author:** ![Topmick](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forum.progressionproject.com/topmick/32/146_2.png) [@Topmick](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/Topmick)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2025, 12:25am UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/178-versus-158-tail/9357/16 "2025-04-08T00:25:17Z")
I had all the Kujira tails & found the KD13R was best match for the KJ980 - still ride it occasionally when on a nice peaky beach break. ---
**Author:** ![noripplez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cdc98d/32.png) [@noripplez](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/noripplez)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2025, 2:04pm UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/178-versus-158-tail/9357/17 "2025-04-08T14:04:06Z")
I wish folks would just say “stab shimmed leading edge up/down”. Then we’d ALL know what they did. Kinda like the way people describe baseplate shim “thick part at front/rear bolts” ---
**Author:** ![FoilFondler](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forum.progressionproject.com/foilfondler/32/299_2.png) [@FoilFondler](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/FoilFondler)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2025, 4:58pm UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/178-versus-158-tail/9357/18 "2025-04-08T16:58:13Z")
But I’d still be wondering, upside down or in use? It’s hopeless maybe. ---
**Author:** ![noripplez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cdc98d/32.png) [@noripplez](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/noripplez)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2025, 5:24pm UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/178-versus-158-tail/9357/19 "2025-04-08T17:24:08Z")
In use!! (but I hear ya 🤣) ---
**Author:** ![froggerdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/cc9497/32.png) [@froggerdave](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/froggerdave)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2025, 6:25pm UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/178-versus-158-tail/9357/20 "2025-04-08T18:25:25Z")
Hey guys, I’m sorry for the confusion. When I’m talking about shimming my stabilizer -1.5 degrees, I’m meaning while in use in the water, I shim the stabilizer leading edge UP in order to increase speed, glide, and turnability. And BTW, I also shim my baseplate thick part forward. 😉 Hope that helps!! [Next page](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/178-versus-158-tail/9357.md?page=2)