# Advanced pumping - aka how the pros pump **URL:** \ **Category:** Technique\ **Created:** [October 8, 2023, 8:46am UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/advanced-pumping-aka-how-the-pros-pump/3425 "2023-10-08T08:46:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Dontsink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@Dontsink](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/Dontsink)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2023, 12:14pm UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/advanced-pumping-aka-how-the-pros-pump/3425/42 "2023-10-19T12:14:02Z")
> **[Ryan Arzy on Instagram: "How to Pump 1. Don’t overthink it! Focus on one...](https://www.instagram.com/reel/CyjiBn9Sda_/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==)** > > 620 likes, 46 comments - lafoiler on October 18, 2023: "How to Pump > 1. Don’t overthink it! Focus on one thing at a time. It’s easy lose focus on key ..." This vid and the text advice are a good summary of many things written here i think. ---
**Author:** ![taavi](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forum.progressionproject.com/taavi/32/477_2.png) [@taavi](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/taavi)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2023, 10:43am UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/advanced-pumping-aka-how-the-pros-pump/3425/43 "2023-10-26T10:43:49Z")
1 hour and 37 minutes worth of pumping where the arms movement seems to contradict with some of the advice given in this post. [![](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/uploads/progressionproject/original/2X/b/b15b667cdafb3d366347d9d1daa11395e0a44e64.jpeg "Jerome Baudoux: 1h 37m on the Indiana 1396P Pumpfoil") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ta0e7apeaUQ) ---
**Author:** ![Matt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@Matt](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/Matt)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2023, 12:19pm UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/advanced-pumping-aka-how-the-pros-pump/3425/44 "2023-10-26T12:19:36Z")
> [@Matt](#): > > is not necessary to do, and not at all necessary on big foils the point of the thread was how to pump in a given situation, like comparing a marathon style with a sprint ---
**Author:** ![FoilMad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc79bd/32.png) [@FoilMad](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/FoilMad)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2023, 8:21pm UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/advanced-pumping-aka-how-the-pros-pump/3425/45 "2023-10-26T20:21:46Z")
Try jumping on the spot without using your arms and then jump with your arms. Without arms moving might look cool to some but it is a distinct bio mechanical handicap. Notice how high you can get with each method and the difference in height and balance. We have arms and should use them for balance and efficiency as we do in every single physical sport. ---
**Author:** ![Dontsink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@Dontsink](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/Dontsink)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2023, 9:09pm UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/advanced-pumping-aka-how-the-pros-pump/3425/46 "2023-10-26T21:09:24Z")
And Unifoil’s Dylan Wichmann agrees with you 🙂 Watch at 1:34 [![](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/uploads/progressionproject/original/2X/3/34bd2744a950c494539e1873a5351714ecf73826.jpeg "How to Pump Your Hydrofoil: Ep 2 - Tips to Improve Your Foil Pumping") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhZhlh8DFjM) ---
**Author:** ![Matt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@Matt](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/Matt)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2023, 1:33pm UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/advanced-pumping-aka-how-the-pros-pump/3425/47 "2023-10-27T13:33:06Z")
You can look at the contradiction between what he is saying at 1:34 and how he pumps at 2:45. At 2:45 he is doing literally exactly what I’ve described as an “advanced pump”, and nowhere in the video **while riding** does he do anything near like the exaggerated beginner dockstart pump thing that he does on the grass. ---
**Author:** ![Dontsink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@Dontsink](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/Dontsink)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2023, 1:56pm UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/advanced-pumping-aka-how-the-pros-pump/3425/48 "2023-10-27T13:56:10Z")
Yep. Your conclusion is that the pros keep their arms hanging because it is more efficient. My conclusion is they don’t need the extra oomph and they like to look more laid back without the swinging thing. ---
**Author:** ![Matt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@Matt](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/Matt)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2023, 3:06pm UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/advanced-pumping-aka-how-the-pros-pump/3425/49 "2023-10-27T15:06:55Z")
ha no I guess this thread has got too long, that is not what I was pointing out, but rather the arm strike point. Look at the **small “paddling” arm movements** in the video above at 2:51 > [@Matt](#): > > They [the pros] do: > > - **strike their arms back** > - bent forward slightly at the hips > - project forward > - short sharp burst movements ---
**Author:** ![Ajam](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forum.progressionproject.com/ajam/32/2078_2.png) [@Ajam](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/Ajam)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2023, 4:46pm UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/advanced-pumping-aka-how-the-pros-pump/3425/50 "2023-10-27T16:46:00Z")
Great summary. And i would add - height control. High on the mast Or with a backwash spot Or with shallow water ground effect, you can do any style you like and have positive results. ---
**Author:** ![Dontsink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@Dontsink](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/Dontsink)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2023, 5:46pm UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/advanced-pumping-aka-how-the-pros-pump/3425/51 "2023-10-27T17:46:52Z")
Ok, i think i might be begginning to understand now. So as your pumps get more efficient (shorter/sharper) the big arm motions just do not fit in?. That is something to work on for me. ---
**Author:** ![jondrums](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@jondrums](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/jondrums)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2023, 7:04pm UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/advanced-pumping-aka-how-the-pros-pump/3425/52 "2023-10-27T19:04:39Z")
I think its more that swinging your arms backwards tends to project the body/board/foil forward. Swinging the arms forward will slow you down at a critical moment. So what we keep seeing is that the best pumpers have adapted to just doing the back swing and little to no forward arm swing. And in many cases we see a backswing for every pump rather than every alternate pump. Seeing this thread a couple of weeks ago and applying this has really clicked for me in the water - it WORKS for me! ---
**Author:** ![FoilerDan](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forum.progressionproject.com/foilerdan/32/2552_2.png) [@FoilerDan](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/FoilerDan)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2023, 12:43am UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/advanced-pumping-aka-how-the-pros-pump/3425/53 "2023-10-30T00:43:48Z")
Man im still struggling to be honest. I can exit waves and head back out but im struggling to stay high on the mast during pumping, and im struggling to keep the speed. I lose it quite often heading over tall waves. Today i went the farthest i could go horizontally and i tried to stay high on the mast but i ended up just slowly losing height and my board was slapping the water Riding freedom fusion board 4ft6 2024 Naish 1040ha foil, carbon mast 220lbs, 99kg ---
**Author:** ![Ajam](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forum.progressionproject.com/ajam/32/2078_2.png) [@Ajam](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/Ajam)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2023, 5:30pm UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/advanced-pumping-aka-how-the-pros-pump/3425/54 "2023-10-30T17:30:00Z")
That’s the second smallest wing in that range. And it’s more of a mid Aspect at 6.0. 99kg is not lightweight. I struggle to get more than 2for1s on a 1100cm2 MA wing and im ‘only’ 95kg ---
**Author:** ![jondrums](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@jondrums](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/jondrums)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2023, 6:30pm UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/advanced-pumping-aka-how-the-pros-pump/3425/55 "2023-10-30T18:30:31Z")
Yeah, everything is different for folks 90kg+. I’m 95kg and I can’t pay any attention to the way foils are marketed, they just don’t work the same for heavier people. You need to learn to pump on a larger more forgiving foil, then you can drop back down and make the smaller one work. You have to be a lot more perfect to pump a small foil, so its shit for learning. ---
**Author:** ![FoilerDan](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forum.progressionproject.com/foilerdan/32/2552_2.png) [@FoilerDan](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/FoilerDan)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2023, 11:29pm UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/advanced-pumping-aka-how-the-pros-pump/3425/56 "2023-10-30T23:29:30Z")
I dont mean to be a cheeky cunt, but ive seen the formuals for HA wings in our range and weight from that excel file on this forum…let me see if i can find the link _edit_ thanks @Ajam Link: [HydrofoilRatio.xlsx - Google Sheets](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bEgbt0GJ09B0czKtLUsgnr6zI2oyK86c/edit?usp=sharing&ouid=100754296585294605727&rtpof=true&sd=true) So you can type in your own weight(kg) and the aspect ratio, to find the cm² area…which I HAVW FOUND TO BE AROUND 1040cm² for the naish… So gentlemen, something must be off because the numbers should work but reality is maybe our speed isnt as high im thinking for these smaller waves…same excel shows around 1500cm² for slow waves ---
**Author:** ![jondrums](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@jondrums](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/jondrums)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2023, 3:14am UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/advanced-pumping-aka-how-the-pros-pump/3425/57 "2023-10-31T03:14:33Z")
Looks like that spreadsheet says an AR10 1040cm2 wing will stall at 24kph at 100kg. Not sure what speed we are going when surf foiling and pumping, maybe someone with gps data will tell us. But 24kph seems like way too high a speed as a minimum speed for pumping. That’s why I say you have to be perfect to pump a foil like that - you need to start going mach looney and keep it up or else, if you lose speed its over. ---
**Author:** ![Ajam](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forum.progressionproject.com/ajam/32/2078_2.png) [@Ajam](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/Ajam)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2023, 7:28am UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/advanced-pumping-aka-how-the-pros-pump/3425/58 "2023-10-31T07:28:57Z")
I made that spreadsheet, based off lift equations and combined with my dodgy GPS watch data and the foils i own. You will also find some fudge factors in there. So take the numbers with more than a grain of salt… That being said, @jondrums is right, you should not be using an average wave cruising speed of 24kph to calculate wing size for pumping - that’s usually just above the stall speed for us mere (heavy) mortals. Example for your AR6 wing and a relatively fast pump speed of 20kph: ![image](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/uploads/progressionproject/original/2X/9/9525bb8da33341f0df3f0fca9aa1a949c3864761.png) AR makes a slight difference: ![image](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/uploads/progressionproject/original/2X/5/5e48d7e78dd40118552739edbe22aefba4ffa396.png) But speed is the biggest factor. So you need to keep that high with whatever helps - faster cadence, more efficient stabilizer, etc. ![image](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/uploads/progressionproject/original/2X/2/2ebfafb55f30ff649b333a66e0f1576c64a60c84.png) ---
**Author:** ![FoilerDan](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forum.progressionproject.com/foilerdan/32/2552_2.png) [@FoilerDan](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/FoilerDan)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2023, 9:35am UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/advanced-pumping-aka-how-the-pros-pump/3425/59 "2023-10-31T09:35:20Z")
I understand the fudges and gps data arent accurate, and like you said…we can keep these wings up with cadence and stabilizers. So what size do you end up riding? Vyper 170 and vyper 130? How is the pumping on the 170? I had an older 2019 naish jet 1050 with a 4.x aspect ratio that i felt like incouldnt really pump(too low?) ALSO what board tracks seem to last the longest? Im scarred of the impending time bomb below my feet and i know sooner or later the board box will poop ---
**Author:** ![Jonnpow](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forum.progressionproject.com/jonnpow/32/10_2.png) [@Jonnpow](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/Jonnpow)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2023, 2:50pm UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/advanced-pumping-aka-how-the-pros-pump/3425/60 "2023-11-01T14:50:58Z")
I think there’s also a pretty big efficiency difference between different front foils and stabs that is hard to predict. I’ve tried a few of similar size and aspect and found a huge difference in the glide efficiency and my ability/energy to pump. Another huge factor is the mast stiffness, where your energy might go into flexing the mast rather than propelling you forward. Would be really interesting to see numbers on drag for each foil at different speeds/rider weights. ---
**Author:** ![Meow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c57346/32.png) [@Meow](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/Meow)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2023, 5:40pm UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/advanced-pumping-aka-how-the-pros-pump/3425/61 "2023-11-01T17:40:56Z")
What do you guys think of Jeremys pump stance? He has a wider stance and doesnt move his back foot forward for a maintenance pump stance. What are your thoughts on this? Wider stance means better height generation, but less efficient for maintenance ? [![](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/uploads/progressionproject/original/2X/a/a7e981f636f4b1847f06f8148772d3598057b762.jpeg "ART 1099 Glide machine extended with 4 min un-edited waves") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpYcI8eCN0o) [Previous page](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/advanced-pumping-aka-how-the-pros-pump/3425.md?page=2) [Next page](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/advanced-pumping-aka-how-the-pros-pump/3425.md?page=4)