# Parawing VMG & Upwind/Downwind ratio - Share your findings! **URL:** \ **Category:** Winging\ **Tags:** string-wing\ **Created:** [September 5, 2026, 12:27pm UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/parawing-vmg-upwind-downwind-ratio-share-your-findings/17724 "2026-09-05T12:27:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![FluidFoil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/4491bb/32.png) [@FluidFoil](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/FluidFoil)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2026, 6:10pm UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/parawing-vmg-upwind-downwind-ratio-share-your-findings/17724/42 "2026-09-17T18:10:44Z")
I can’t get in to the app right now which isn’t surprising, she is always updating and adding features, but I can’t check to see exactly how to do it. On one of the views you can click on your reaches in the map view and see your angles, and also click on the dots on the protractor and see the info from each reach. If you expand your “climb” it will show that climbs total VMG and angle with all combined jibes and reachs, but you should be able to see individual legs and angles on the overview I think. Or something, like I said, she’s constantly updating it so play around with it and if you don’t see what you are looking for it’s probably coming. ---
**Author:** ![Apfoil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Apfoil](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/Apfoil)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2026, 7:18pm UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/parawing-vmg-upwind-downwind-ratio-share-your-findings/17724/43 "2026-09-17T19:18:20Z")
I can’t ride switch. Lining up with people it’s obvious it’s a detriment, but it’s not massive. I suspect it to take a while to learn how to get better angles switch vs toe side. I want to learn for ergonomics as much as angles— twisting over the same shoulder for a full session has my neck hurting and overall doesn’t feel as healthy as more bilaterally equal movement ---
**Author:** ![foilstate](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forum.progressionproject.com/foilstate/32/1503_2.png) [@foilstate](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/foilstate)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2026, 7:30pm UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/parawing-vmg-upwind-downwind-ratio-share-your-findings/17724/44 "2026-09-17T19:30:14Z")
> **[Chiffomètre – Parawing Session Track Analysis V15.0](https://chiffometre.netlify.app/)** ---
**Author:** ![foilstate](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forum.progressionproject.com/foilstate/32/1503_2.png) [@foilstate](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/foilstate)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2026, 7:37pm UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/parawing-vmg-upwind-downwind-ratio-share-your-findings/17724/45 "2026-09-17T19:37:05Z")
I have a garmin instinct watch with which I record a Sup session (continuous track). On the watch display I put the angle and speed, with that I can monitor the vmg roughly while sailing upwind. For example you see the angle is 320 on starboard, you jibe and then the angle is 220 on port. It means you are currently doing 50 degrees to the wind (which is great!). At home I export the gpx file and import into [https://chiffometre.netlify.app/](https://chiffometre.netlify.app/) that does a great analysis. One limiting factor is that it computes one wind direction from your upwind reaches, for the whole session, in a symmetrical way. If the wind direction varies, and/or if your weak side has less good of an angle than your strong side (almost always the case..), it introduces a bit of an error in the data because the calculated wind direction is a bit off. Being regular for example, stronger on starboard tack, it will usually calculate a wind direction that is a few degrees less than reality. ---
**Author:** ![Leepasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Leepasty](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/Leepasty)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2026, 8:20pm UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/parawing-vmg-upwind-downwind-ratio-share-your-findings/17724/46 "2026-09-17T20:20:29Z")
there’s no way you can get the same angle going toeside as you can heel side. yes maybe if just cruising but if you are ripping upwind full power with wing low on a small foil you will lose 5-7 degrees going toeside instead of switching feet. its laughable seeing posts about the good vmg of the afterburner and double skins/hybrids and then the poster adds that they don’t switch feet 🤣 ---
**Author:** ![Zarb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47774/32.png) [@Zarb](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/Zarb)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2026, 10:20pm UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/parawing-vmg-upwind-downwind-ratio-share-your-findings/17724/47 "2026-09-17T22:20:46Z")
Also, for people using Foil.Run - if you see issues or think of any suggestions, submit a ticket in the website or app. She’s sinking like 5+ hours a day into the development of the app & algorithms, so she can turn around improvements very quickly. ---
**Author:** ![J\_L](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forum.progressionproject.com/j_l/32/770_2.png) [@J\_L](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/J_L)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2026, 10:36pm UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/parawing-vmg-upwind-downwind-ratio-share-your-findings/17724/48 "2026-09-17T22:36:09Z")
> [@foilstate](#): > > parawing vmg podium is 1. Flysurfer Zap / 2. PPC Orbit / 3. 777 Hybrid / 4. Ozone Afterburner I’m curious what you have heard about the Zap? It seems like it’s been out for a while but no real reviews yet ---
**Author:** ![foilstate](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forum.progressionproject.com/foilstate/32/1503_2.png) [@foilstate](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/foilstate)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2026, 4:38am UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/parawing-vmg-upwind-downwind-ratio-share-your-findings/17724/49 "2026-09-18T04:38:08Z")
Supposedly the zap is geared towards racing. Thicker fabric than orbit/hybrid (\>30g) so it packs big, longer lines (5 and 6.5m super long), smaller holes in the trailing edge (longer time to empty the air and water than the orbit). But supposedly even greater vmg than the orbit, the 3 and 4m might still be usable in upwind downwind. If anyone owns one, keen to hear! ---
**Author:** ![FoilMad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc79bd/32.png) [@FoilMad](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/FoilMad)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2026, 6:34am UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/parawing-vmg-upwind-downwind-ratio-share-your-findings/17724/50 "2026-09-18T06:34:02Z")
I am not even sure about the other placings. @J_L above with a PRV2 out pointing a 777 hybrid. Afterburner better than pocket rocket again. ---
**Author:** ![nord\_roi](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forum.progressionproject.com/nord_roi/32/123_2.png) [@nord\_roi](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/nord_roi)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2026, 2:46pm UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/parawing-vmg-upwind-downwind-ratio-share-your-findings/17724/51 "2026-09-21T14:46:54Z")
I’m trying to figure out all the hype on the VMG. so if i understand, it’s the real speed you climb upwind. So the best are about 8knts and an average PW is about 6.5 knts? so after 1 hour of making upwind I’ll be able to do 2.8 km more of dw? ---
**Author:** ![foilstate](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forum.progressionproject.com/foilstate/32/1503_2.png) [@foilstate](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/foilstate)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2026, 3:41pm UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/parawing-vmg-upwind-downwind-ratio-share-your-findings/17724/52 "2026-09-21T15:41:55Z")
Yes that’s correct! Actually the upper limit is higher. I am seeing 12kts with Lachie White on the orbit, details to be determined but there is a lot of room for improvement ---
**Author:** ![Matt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@Matt](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/Matt)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2026, 3:44pm UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/parawing-vmg-upwind-downwind-ratio-share-your-findings/17724/53 "2026-09-21T15:44:37Z")
my 2c as I wanted to share UDMG (ridiculous idea) > [@nord\_roi](#): > > after 1 hour of making upwind I’ll be able to do 2.8 km more of dw? yes pretty much, thinking of it in terms of `KM you can ride downwind per hour spent going upwind` is probably the best _way_ for us non-racers who are just looking to ride bumps to think about it. [wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velocity_made_good) for the strict definition: > Instead of sailing directly toward a windward mark, the [helmsman](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmsman "Helmsman") chooses a [point of sail](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Points_of_sail) towards the direction of the wind that maximizes velocity made good (either towards the destination - or towards better winds Important to note (i think) that it’s not just an angle (eg measuring 45 degrees between tacks), or measuring a few tacks and seeing the average angle, it’s measuring how fast you get to the furthest _ **useful** _ distance to downwind back ie Velocity Made Good, but where Good is the maximum amount of BUMPS TO RIDE BACK. In rivers I guess it’s simpler, because you can only go upriver (but current distorts the figures as you can imagine). In the ocean you get a massive wind shift, it completely changes the economics of your VMG, for the better or worse. So the VMG numbers usually aren’t taking into account windshifts in a sensible way (except Wren’s app afaik, which she has given some thought to this, but it’s tricky as you need to look at the wind direction from live reads, and then approximate the maximum bumps attained, I looked at it closely when it was still early) Here is a picture which exaggerates it (and is probably wrong but I’d like to know why), where - Scenario 1 is normal upwind downwind with steady wind direction - Scenario 2 is a highly exaggerated windshift to favour the rider ![image](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/uploads/progressionproject/original/3X/3/7/374f8b9d118dc5b2c64efe24554642870f0f735f.png) I think changing from VMG to Usable Downwind Made Good (UDMG) would be interesting ---
**Author:** ![Wouzel](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forum.progressionproject.com/wouzel/32/12510_2.png) [@Wouzel](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/Wouzel)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2026, 4:14pm UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/parawing-vmg-upwind-downwind-ratio-share-your-findings/17724/54 "2026-09-21T16:14:40Z")
@nord_roi correct. Currently there’s some parawing hype because a few new designs have dramatically improved VMG. Those designs do require trade offs tho, so, at this point, they won’t be for everyone everywhere. ---
**Author:** ![nord\_roi](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forum.progressionproject.com/nord_roi/32/123_2.png) [@nord\_roi](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/nord_roi)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2026, 4:46pm UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/parawing-vmg-upwind-downwind-ratio-share-your-findings/17724/55 "2026-09-21T16:46:39Z")
I’m probably just getting old and grumpy 😂. I’m not against progress, and I’m all for testing new concepts. But I’m starting to wonder if we’re focusing on the right things when it comes to the development of parawings. When I heard X-Foil say that it might take around seven sessions before you really appreciate the wing, it got me thinking. The sport is still relatively new, and I suspect most people getting into parawing will start with just one size. For someone who works full-time and doesn’t live somewhere with consistent trade winds, seven sessions could easily represent 2 months at least! I’m not saying we shouldn’t push performance or test new concepts. But personally, I think the next big step for parawings should be improving the **get-going and pumpability**.if we can get up and jibe in lower wind that would extend a lot the range of the parawing….instead of making a 3m - 3.5 super good in 35 knts!? Being able to get up on foil easily, generate power efficiently, and pump onto foil in marginal conditions would make a much bigger difference to the everyday rider than gaining another knot of speed or a few degrees of upwind angle. If we can make a wing that is intuitive, easy to get going with, and easy to pump from the first few sessions, I think that’s where we could really accelerate the growth of the sport. Maybe I’m just old and grumpy and writing in the wrong thread, but I’m not sure the industry is going in the good direction. ---
**Author:** ![Apfoil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Apfoil](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/Apfoil)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2026, 4:53pm UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/parawing-vmg-upwind-downwind-ratio-share-your-findings/17724/56 "2026-09-21T16:53:32Z")
7 sessions also might be less than a week for several people. I’ve for sure gotten 7 sessions in 5 days before. Number of people isn’t as important for the industry as units sold. There is no reason to cater to the people buying one size and going a couple times a month. They’ll buy a parawing every two years at that rate. I have probably owned 6 different parawings (bought and sold some used), and I know several people who have bought way more. Might be a smaller number of people but a more important part of the economics. Also there are tons of parawings that are good for beginners, even going back to the v1 frigate ---
**Author:** ![Matt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@Matt](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/Matt)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2026, 5:03pm UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/parawing-vmg-upwind-downwind-ratio-share-your-findings/17724/57 "2026-09-21T17:03:22Z")
> [@nord\_roi](#): > > If we can make a wing that is intuitive, easy to get going with, and easy to pump from the first few sessions, I think that’s where we could really accelerate the growth of the sport. this is catered to by the latest release of almost any brand no? I got the feeling that this is done ---
**Author:** ![Wouzel](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forum.progressionproject.com/wouzel/32/12510_2.png) [@Wouzel](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/Wouzel)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2026, 5:08pm UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/parawing-vmg-upwind-downwind-ratio-share-your-findings/17724/58 "2026-09-21T17:08:13Z")
On the Orbit, IMO, if you don’t appreciate that parawing the 1st session then its time to move on. The VMG on that thing is next level on it and if you ride it and don’t appreciate that specific trait straight out the gate then it’s not worth the effort to figure out it’s complexity. I sold my 2.7 and 3.5 and I do, at times, truly miss the upwind speed which is quite a rush in it’s own sense. I’ve found though, this is a hobby, and comfort with a chill sailing experience is more valuable than rushing around trying to force everything to be optimized. Most seasons I get 100+ days a year on the water (I count days not sessions) but this year I’ll come in with a lot fewer, probably 75. Even at that many days I don’t like wasting them. For me the question isn’t “Should I sacrifice 10 sessions to a new piece of gear” it’s “Did I get off the water pissed off today because I had such a bad experience that I need to drop $3000 and 10 days to change the experience?” The answer for me is no. I think the forums and facebook are often packed with people on the bleeding edge (myself included at times). I think if you try to ignore the hype and FOMO you get from reading all this stuff and just get some sunshine with your friends you’ll realize VMG is irrelevant vs my buddies preferred unit of measure: “Smiles per mile.” but yeah, this is the VMG thread, so you get what you came for! 🤣 ---
**Author:** ![Matt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@Matt](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/Matt)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2026, 5:16pm UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/parawing-vmg-upwind-downwind-ratio-share-your-findings/17724/59 "2026-09-21T17:16:23Z")
Also to your point I don’t like kiting or winging or parawinging particularly but the idea of going faster upwind than the equivalent hassle of shuttling so that I can downwind is extremely appealing, and I think if VMG wings could make shuttling less time efficient than just riding upwind (as has happened in the gorge), then I’m all for it. Foiling is easy enough for beginners, any easier and it starts to attract lazy idiots like you see with jet skis and foil assist and the like (evidence so far is that all the trouble with lifeguards etc has been with foil assist, and jet skis speak for themselves) ---
**Author:** ![foilstate](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forum.progressionproject.com/foilstate/32/1503_2.png) [@foilstate](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/foilstate)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2026, 5:34pm UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/parawing-vmg-upwind-downwind-ratio-share-your-findings/17724/60 "2026-09-21T17:34:57Z")
You definitely have a point. Parawinging is dividing in subcategories at the moment. I think there is a lot of parawings that are checking the box of ease of use now. The use case I am looking for is a parawing that makes car shuttle for downwind obsolete. I like to go upwind far and fast, 10-20km (hopefully more soon), and go back downwind hands free. Any wind direction, any hour of the day, that is true downwind freedom. And for that purpose, vmg makes quite a big difference to the experience. It will come with compromises, higher technicality, but for some people like me, it will be worth it. I love when something is hard, challenging, technical, takes time and effort to master. That is where all the fun is to be had. When it is plug and play I get bored quite quickly. ---
**Author:** ![Hdip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a4c791/32.png) [@Hdip](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/Hdip)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2026, 5:49pm UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/parawing-vmg-upwind-downwind-ratio-share-your-findings/17724/61 "2026-09-21T17:49:07Z")
> [@nord\_roi](#): > > For someone who works full-time and doesn’t live somewhere with consistent trade winds, seven sessions could easily represent 2 months at least! Follow @Greg_F and what he’s doing with Omen Foils. He is making the most user friendly parawing boards and foils that just work. He will tell you exactly how to set it up. They don’t make a parawing, but he’ll recommend one of those too if you ask him. Sometimes in his videos when he says this is for the middle aged guy who only get’s out once a week, I start to take offense. Then I realize, that’s exactly me, and I’ve been happy on his gear every session for 3 years now. The new stuff looks even better. [Previous page](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/parawing-vmg-upwind-downwind-ratio-share-your-findings/17724.md?page=2) [Next page](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/parawing-vmg-upwind-downwind-ratio-share-your-findings/17724.md?page=4)