# Spitfire vs Progression for pumping in the surf **URL:** \ **Category:** Prone Surf Foiling\ **Created:** [August 7, 2023, 3:20pm UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/spitfire-vs-progression-for-pumping-in-the-surf/2799 "2023-08-07T15:20:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![dillionaire](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forum.progressionproject.com/dillionaire/32/2800_2.png) [@dillionaire](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/dillionaire)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2023, 1:51am UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/spitfire-vs-progression-for-pumping-in-the-surf/2799/21 "2023-08-15T01:51:53Z")
One important note… I was comparing the 170p pump to the art1099. The Axis 899 was terrible for me. 1099 pumped well. I should’ve been more specific with my earlier comment 🤙🏼 ---
**Author:** ![Matt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@Matt](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/Matt)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2023, 8:50am UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/spitfire-vs-progression-for-pumping-in-the-surf/2799/22 "2023-08-15T08:50:22Z")
> [@MediterraneanFoiler](#): > > the 300p makes every foil pitchy from my experience on BSC and ART as it’s quite small so it makes the sweet spot of center of lift pretty small Interesting, what tail do you find works best with the spitfire? Alternatives are skinny, p375, og 333. Would you shim them for less pitchy? > [@dillionaire](#): > > One important note… I was comparing the 170p pump to the art1099. The Axis 899 was terrible for me. 1099 pumped well. I should’ve been more specific with my earlier comment 🤙🏼 Nice, yeah the 1099 in glass was very fun, 899 just hateful for me too. ---
**Author:** ![timmcg89](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3bc359/32.png) [@timmcg89](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/timmcg89)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2023, 10:54am UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/spitfire-vs-progression-for-pumping-in-the-surf/2799/24 "2023-08-15T10:54:08Z")
> [@Matt](#): > > I rode the spitfire 900 back to back with progression 140. Eye balling them they looked the same span and size but the 900 is actually closer to the progression 170 in surface area (167”) > > Spitfire = first session, Progression = daily driver for 3 months so this is a first impression. I was riding an Axis HPS 880 for the 4 months prior to switching to unifoil. I will update more this week > > Conditions - typical waist high bouncy onshore crap that we get daily > > Breach - this is where the biggest improvement on the HPS. Relatively shallow angle breaches were recoverable. Probably on par with progression or at least “no longer nightmare” like the HPS > > Glide - spitfire has noticeably less glide, even for the 167” area. Put this down to the bigger chord ie lower AR > > Pump - simple pump, but require more effort to maintain. Has a pitchy pump, maybe peculiar, it felt similar to the first time on the axis 1201 that is novel to me, but once you get it it is forgiving if a little bit high energy. Requires less finesse than the progression but loses altitude noticeably quickly. P300 tail so I will try a different tail to discount this. > > Turn - fun and playful, still a bit pitchy and less smooth than the progression but much more fun than the distant memory of the HPS. Granted I’ve improved since then but I felt like I had plateaued. Turns nicely and rolls quickly which was the HPS worst feature, HPS would stick on one side and fight to roll over. > > Turbulence - the lower aspect ratio means the spitfire gets less unsettled by whitewater turbulence, so you can pump sooner after going through the back of a broken wave than the progression. > > On the whole I was happy and quickly pushing nice feeling turns in similar conditions to what I enjoy on the 140. I noticed the lack of glide, but also the simpler pump which I guess might suit really crap conditions. > > > [@timmauger](#): > > > > I was under the impression that the Progressions were way better pumpers than the Arts, > > This is absolutely correct, in the general sense that the ART range is tricky to pump and any mistake or wobble or turbulence and you’ll stall > > > [@timmauger](#): > > > > I was hoping the Spitfires would be at least better than Arts. > > “Better” is too broad to definitely call. I’d break it out into the following > > Ease of use (most to least) > Spitfire \> Progression \> ART > > Pure efficiency or Glide(most to least) > ART \> Progression \> Spitfire > > The progression in my eyes is the best compromise between very good glide while still being easy enough to deal with the surf zone confusion and less than perfect technique. Hey Matt, also an 880 rider considering the 900… would you say the pump between SF 900 and HPS 880 is equivalent or could I get away with the 840 @75kg? I can link 3-4 waves max on the 880 just want the roll and tip breach the spitfire provides ( and am too deep in axis to warrant jumping ship! ---
**Author:** ![MediterraneanFoiler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ed655f/32.png) [@MediterraneanFoiler](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/MediterraneanFoiler)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2023, 11:00am UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/spitfire-vs-progression-for-pumping-in-the-surf/2799/25 "2023-08-15T11:00:40Z")
Didn’t ride the Spitfire. All I’m saying is that the 300p is a small tail, that made every setup pitchy for me. I still like it for dock start but overall Axis allows you to create those mutant setups with extremely small fuse and tails which ---
**Author:** ![Matt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@Matt](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/Matt)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2023, 11:45am UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/spitfire-vs-progression-for-pumping-in-the-surf/2799/26 "2023-08-15T11:45:47Z")
I’d try demo them it has been ages since I rode the 880 and don’t plan on riding it again so more likely the progression140/spitfire900 is a more valid comparison point. I’m 70kg and felt like I could prob get 3 or 4 quick links without blowing up. The HPS needed to be going really fast to get any efficiency in the pump so I would imagine you could size down ---
**Author:** ![McD](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forum.progressionproject.com/mcd/32/5694_2.png) [@McD](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/McD)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2023, 12:16pm UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/spitfire-vs-progression-for-pumping-in-the-surf/2799/27 "2023-08-24T12:16:21Z")
nice comparison Matt - it would be really great to get you onto the 877 or 1107 for comparison also as they were designed for similar usage, namely to pump, glide and turn well, without sacrificing too much top end, so on paper should be right between the Spitfires and Progressions. They have custom sections optimised for high lift without stalling but also with a low drag through most of the range. Top end is similar to ART but much better low end and pumping. It would be possible to gain even more low speed lift but you start to pay fairly heavily in drag at normal foiling speeds… Planform is reasonably high aspect ratio for the glide, but not extreme for the turns, and tips are designed to breach easily without venting. ---
**Author:** ![Matt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@Matt](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/Matt)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2023, 1:14pm UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/spitfire-vs-progression-for-pumping-in-the-surf/2799/28 "2023-08-24T13:14:18Z")
> [@McD](#): > > 877 or 1107 Hey Mark yeah thanks for following up, would be really interested in having a go, especially to compare with the progression, as they are maybe more similar in design than the Spitfire. Maybe a session in Cornwall? Buddy here is riding the 1201 very extensively so would happily give you feedback on your 1107 too. Those wondering: > **[Front Wing 877](https://www.maguireboats.com/front-wing-877-437-p.asp)** > > 877 The 877 was developed to be the ultimate all-round foil for intermediate to advanced and light weight riders. We wanted exceptional glide and a ---
**Author:** ![Meow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c57346/32.png) [@Meow](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/Meow)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2023, 6:15pm UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/spitfire-vs-progression-for-pumping-in-the-surf/2799/29 "2023-08-24T18:15:45Z")
What’s the AR and area on the 877 and 977? ---
**Author:** ![McD](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forum.progressionproject.com/mcd/32/5694_2.png) [@McD](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/McD)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2023, 10:27am UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/spitfire-vs-progression-for-pumping-in-the-surf/2799/30 "2023-08-25T10:27:41Z")
They are pretty close dimensions as below, however are very different foils. 977 is more of a race foil, high top end but relatively higher stall speed. 877 has a much lower stall speed so will get going much earlier and keep gliding for longer, but doesn’t have the same top speed. 877 is 877cm^2 / 910mm span / AR 9.4 977 is 977cm^2 / 950mm span / AR 9.2. ---
**Author:** ![FoilyMcLipshitz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e19b73/32.png) [@FoilyMcLipshitz](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/FoilyMcLipshitz)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2023, 1:39pm UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/spitfire-vs-progression-for-pumping-in-the-surf/2799/31 "2023-08-25T13:39:46Z")
I have been riding the Spitfire with KD Marlin 14" tail. I tried it on a 325P and it felt draggy and not fun. The Marlin for me is perfect for my 900 Spitty. Perfect balance of pump, glide and super loose. The more I ride the spitty, the better the pumping gets. I would love to try a Progression someday. Someone please send me one. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![timmcg89](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3bc359/32.png) [@timmcg89](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/timmcg89)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2023, 12:58am UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/spitfire-vs-progression-for-pumping-in-the-surf/2799/33 "2023-08-26T00:58:12Z")
What’s your weight? Trying to decide between the 900 or 840 @72 kgs… can pump the hps880 3/4 fo ---
**Author:** ![Cygnify](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@Cygnify](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/Cygnify)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2023, 1:54am UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/spitfire-vs-progression-for-pumping-in-the-surf/2799/34 "2023-08-26T01:54:58Z")
840 for sure. I’m 76kg, and can pump the 840 pretty easily, and find the 840 slightly bigger then ideal (but still fine) for me in the surf in waist to chest high waves. ---
**Author:** ![Meow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c57346/32.png) [@Meow](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/Meow)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2023, 7:40pm UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/spitfire-vs-progression-for-pumping-in-the-surf/2799/35 "2023-08-27T19:40:05Z")
Wondering where the old lift ha wings fit into this equation? It’s obviously a better surf wing than art. And it will pump better but turn worse than spitfire. Is progression a better version of lift ha? Or does lift ha still have their place in today’s wing landscape? ---
**Author:** ![dillionaire](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forum.progressionproject.com/dillionaire/32/2800_2.png) [@dillionaire](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/dillionaire)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2023, 8:31pm UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/spitfire-vs-progression-for-pumping-in-the-surf/2799/36 "2023-08-27T20:31:44Z")
A “big difference” is subjective. For me, I can pump the 170p easier that the 200ha. I would say that I can flat water pump the 170p about 10-15 seconds longer than the 200ha. Surf performance on 170p will be much better that 200ha ---
**Author:** ![fatfish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c89c15/32.png) [@fatfish](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/fatfish)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2023, 4:32pm UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/spitfire-vs-progression-for-pumping-in-the-surf/2799/37 "2023-08-28T16:32:19Z")
Does the KD Marlin fit for Axis? Top Mount? ---
**Author:** ![FoilyMcLipshitz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e19b73/32.png) [@FoilyMcLipshitz](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/FoilyMcLipshitz)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2023, 4:24am UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/spitfire-vs-progression-for-pumping-in-the-surf/2799/38 "2023-08-29T04:24:47Z")
I bought a KD Marlin made for Axis but I spoke to Kane at the Gorge and he said that it was only a limited amount that he made because the Axis skinnies just dropped and they were similar. It is a top mount. Just ask him if you can get one. It is the most versatile tail I have had. Haven’t tried the skinny’s only because I have the holy grail already. ---
**Author:** ![fatfish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c89c15/32.png) [@fatfish](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/fatfish)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2023, 6:12pm UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/spitfire-vs-progression-for-pumping-in-the-surf/2799/39 "2023-08-29T18:12:43Z")
thanks, good to know, will hit up KDM and ask if he has any left overs ---
**Author:** ![rycpt](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex030/user_avatar/forum.progressionproject.com/rycpt/32/349_2.png) [@rycpt](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/rycpt)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2023, 11:34pm UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/spitfire-vs-progression-for-pumping-in-the-surf/2799/40 "2023-12-20T23:34:32Z")
I recently switched from the HPS 980 to the spitfire 960. The spitfire is easier to pump but has a higher stall speed. The spitfire drops abruptly unlike the HPS which gave me plenty of opportunities to grave dig. But for whatever reason I’m less gassed after pumping out to a second wave on the spitfire than on the hps. ---
**Author:** ![Sjaak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c57346/32.png) [@Sjaak](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/Sjaak)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2023, 7:25am UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/spitfire-vs-progression-for-pumping-in-the-surf/2799/41 "2023-12-21T07:25:13Z")
I wonder how the Spitfire 1030 and the Progression 200 compare for pumping and linking knee high slow waves on a sup for a not so very fit 67 yo 85 kg They are very similar in dimensions: Spitfire 1030 Span 1030 Surface 1308 AR 8,26 Progression 200 Span 1037 Surface 1290 AR 8,30 Which one is easier for a not very talented pumper? Which one has a lower stall speed? And which one will be more fun? And what tails would make pumping easier on both of them? And what about the Katana and Progression mast? 80 cm is a bit long for for small waves breaking on a shallow sand bank… ---
**Author:** ![MediterraneanFoiler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ed655f/32.png) [@MediterraneanFoiler](https://forum.progressionproject.com/u/MediterraneanFoiler)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2023, 9:24pm UTC](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/spitfire-vs-progression-for-pumping-in-the-surf/2799/42 "2023-12-22T21:24:28Z")
didn’t try a spitfire but I can rock-start the 170 progression, it glides and generates lift in slow speed, plus very pumpable. so probably the 200 progression will be easier to pump and connect waves than spitfire, but as I mentioned, didn’t try one. 14.5 progression tail and 75cm mast will work well for your scenario [Previous page](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/spitfire-vs-progression-for-pumping-in-the-surf/2799.md?page=1) [Next page](https://forum.progressionproject.com/t/spitfire-vs-progression-for-pumping-in-the-surf/2799.md?page=3)