In addition to choosing the correct foil, pick your board wisely too😂
@bdavis Damn. That looks an awful lot like my dock start board, and I certainly noticed a few creaking noises riding it today.
@silas Congratulations on the success. I think you can get in really good cardio shape just by doing dock starts. At my current fitness/skill level, I’m shooting for 5 sets of 40 seconds pump time, which requires me to rest/recover probably a full 2 minutes between sets. I still fall or screw something up roughly 30% of my attempts.
I have two sessions on a Go Foil GL240 with a FTL 14.5 and the 75cm v2 mast, riding what is probably that 3’ 6" broken board in the picture. Mast is slammed back as far as it will go on the outside holes, and I could probably move it back to the max using the inside mast mounts.
So far, I don’t think this wing is quiet as good as the Axis 1150, but I’ve spent more time on the Axis. I think the GL240 turns much better than the Axis. It also handles breaches way better… probably because of the turned down wing tips. I had one run today where I breached in a turn, recovered, breached again, recovered but lost speed, touched down 3 times grave digging out of the hole and pumped probably 40yards back to the dock. On the Axis, breaching through a turn is game over for me.
Go Foil wings are buoyant, and have a good amount of float… you notice it on a wing this size and I would say it makes keeping the wing higher in the water column somewhat easier, very beginner friendly. It’s also nice if you’re doing more paddling than pumping when just starting out as you wont be sinking as much.
I haven’t been on Go Foil gear in a while and it feels like my back leg is wrecked pumping this thing around. I’m not sure if this is specific to Go Foil but my Armstrong 1180 doesn’t have anywhere near the same feels. For me, ideally, force would be applied across both legs evenly. For some reason, this wing just wants to burn out my back leg. Maybe its my mast position, maybe its my technique, or maybe its just the way Go Foil rides. I don’t know, but thats the biggest negative for me.
Overall, if you are just starting out, or want to try and get into dock starts don’t over look Go Foil equipment. Its a good buyers market and you can find some deals, especially on older “novelty” wings like these big honking dock start kits. I’d love to try out a 75cm v1.5 mast and a short tail, which I think would make things even easier. I bet the GT2200 is really fun too.
Good luck to all.
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@wenis Are you riding an Orb too?
Either way, if the board is creaking it’s going to snap. That Liquid Force board snapped on the third dock start session. I heard it pop on my first run and it would make some kind of noise on every attempt. On the final day the popping noise turned more into a creaking noise and that’s when it snapped.
The board is getting warrantied but after seeing its guts and the construction, I don’t have much faith in it. I’m sure the next one will snap too.
I’m 210 pounds and have a horribly inefficient technique so that’s a recipe for disaster.
Yes. Its an Orb.
Had a few sessions this weekend… one terrible session on the GL240. I moved the mast back as far as I could and never really got my feet in the right spot. I also keep hearing my board sound like its going to break at any moment.
Today I rode @dillionaire 's setup (Axis 1150) and its like riding a bike. I completed 5 intervals at maybe 30 seconds with a ~1 minute final run. I also got to watch him crank out consistent 1 minute runs working on technique. FWIW, it is very helpful to train with a buddy and have an instant feedback loop. You can also get videos to see how much of a kook you look like flailing your arms around like a drunk toddler.
GLTA.
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That’s a bummer….I was really hoping mine was just a manufacturing defect but it sounds like that’s not the case. I just got the replacement Orb today.
It’s really a shame because this has been my favorite board so far but what good is a foil board that can’t withstand pumping???
Lots of boards can’t. The old slingshot Dwarfcrafts would snap all the time
Thought those were supposed to be one of the stronger boards???
The replacement Orb isn’t doing much better. It’s making cracking noises and the front of the tracks are already creased. There’s about an 1/8” divot there at the front.
This is after one tow session and about 20 dock runs.
Is that a liquid force board?
Compression molded boards aren’t going to hold up unless they have a supporting substrate other than foam.
I have broken 100’s of wakeboards wirh the same construction and they didn’t have the leverage of a foil.
Yes Liquid Force but the construction looks more traditional with a thin wood stringer and EPS foam. There was hardly any high density foam around the tracks.
I would have thought there would be a layer of PVC.
I started dockstarting the 1300 then 1201. Then I got code S foils. The 1130 wasnt super hard to dockstart and surprisingly the 860r is actually almost easier. I doubt I would be able to dockstart the 980. But the 1130 is already a surf wing that you can prone with. Which means I can dockstart the same wing that I’m surfing. Ideally you want to find a dockstart setup that is the same as the one your proning with.
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Meow - I have been thinking about this thread a ton. “You need to find one the same…” based on what? (For the record I would have agreed with you a month or two ago, but now I’m not so sure) I know that text is hard to understand my intentions. I’m saying this in the nicest way possible. This is what I keep thinking about…
Typically when I dock start, I do sets @ my 50% of max. This is because it only takes 2-3 minutes to recover vs 10 mins after a 90% effort run.
So I go to the dock with my prone wing and I do 10 jumps. My prone wing max is 60 seconds. So 50% effort 10 jumps x 30 seconds = 5 minutes of pumping per workout
Using a dock start wing with a PR of 3 minutes (50% effort is 1:30). 1:30 x 10 jumps = 15 minutes of pump time per workout.
4 workouts a week = 20 mins of pumping w/ prone & 60 mins w/ big wing.
In the running world, with all things being equal. The person that’s running triple the distance per week is going to be considerably faster. I’m not sure if these same rules apply to pumping. 
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I would compare that to a sprinter that is training by running long distances at a slow pace. I’m sure it would help somewhat for sprinting but at some point the sprinter is going to have to do sprints😂.
If the goal is to pump for time and distance then a large pump foil is ideal but if the goal is to improve prone surfing, then becoming competent on dock starting the prone foil is ideal.
I don’t see myself continuing to dock start when I’m at a level where I’m competently pumping and linking in the surf (not looking like that’s going to be any time soon though).
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Hmmm… I wasn’t looking at it from your perspective. I guess we have different goals. I can consistently link 4-6 waves. My best is 12. When prone, I want to get to 15 min consistently, then ultimately 1 hr of linking
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Interesting post, i’m in the same boat - I prone on 900cm3 85cm and 1100cm3 95cm 8.4ar foils in small to medium surf using foil drive on 35L board(2yrs). I haven’t any decent docks close and I don’t want to use a big wing which doesn’t translate to my surf foils. My goal has always been to use Foil drive to learn to surf foil and then slowly use my own steam. I’ve had such a blast I have forgot my original quest. Funnily enough the biggest hurdle was I’d given surfing up 10 yrs ago because I was sick of the negative vibes around lineups. FD let me get away from all the crap but I had to relearn the pop up and timing. I’m very comfortable on a wave now but my pump game sucks. I’ve now started to try and improve my pump and am using FD in flat water trying to pump the 1100 foil. So far after 2 flat water pump sessions I’ve learnt I need to move my stance narrower and slow down a bit and let the foil glide. After reading people’s really helpful tips I think keeping the foil high has to be the next.
(Anyone else learnt to pump using FD+??)
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I think there are two seperate but related things here:
-Learning to pump, full stop.
-Pumping to link waves prone or dw
For the first, my experience is very much that a big foil makes progression much easier and faster. If you can’t pump a big foil you definitely can’t pump a small foil so the question of carryover in this scenario seems moot to me. The main question here then is how do you get on foil to work on pumping. I started winging and thought I could pump ok, but it turns out starting at mach turkey hid a huge number of flaws and weaknesses in my pump game. These came out when I went to prone and then FoilDrive. FoilDrive makes launch and relaunch quick and easy so that is great, but it also adds a lot of weight which makes pumping considerably harder and you have to learn the foot shuffle which is a FD specific skill so there is a bit of sidetracking. Dockstarting is typically the lightest and easiest to pump setup so with a big foil I think it is one of the easier approaches. But you still have to learn the launch process, which depending on your dock may be easy or hard but is still a sidetrack. Tow-ups with a boat or tow boogie are probably the most direct way to get on foil on the lightest, easiest to pump setup. I think getting on the easiest setup possible is important for maximizing reps - progress picks up exponentially in all foiling disciplines once you get good enough to spend roughly 50% or more of a session on foil, same deal with pumping. There is a lot to gain here - fitness, muscle memory, mastery of different pump types, make ride height management more automatic, etc, that really just depends on your time on foil much much more than your foil size.
Learning to link waves definitely involves mastering a specific setup, usually with a relatively small foil compared to rider weight. Reps on the specific gear is important, but the number of reps required will be so much less if the above skills and fitness have already been well developed. I think dockstarting a smallish DW foil for your weight is generally doable without becoming a dockstart ninja, while a smaller prone foil requires either ninja skills or a really really fantastic dock - long, low, stable, foil can project under the dock so you can launch at high speed and bobble free.
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This is my experience of watching wingers try pump and then my own experience winging and then pumping while winging. Winging messes with your pumping abilities and throws your low end sensitivity.
I think this is because you end up trimmed incorrectly for pumping. Weight too far forward.
Moving your feet back so that you are perfectly trimmed is the most important thing, meaning you can glide more for each pump, and maintain the same altitude. Too far forward means your pumps are mostly getting your own body weight up to even, rather than gliding at the maximum potential of the foil, and using the pumps to gain height.
I think this is more fundamental issue than “stay high on the mast height”. Continually riding low on mast is a symptom of bad trim and not able to maintain height.
More about Foil Trim - how to get the balance right
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So, not proning, but the wind finally came back after a month of flat calm and I got out on my 950cm2 foil winging again. In that month I managed to go from basically unable to dock start to pumping to cardio failure at will on a 1450cm2 foil, and it has led to very significant gains on the small foil. Pumping the small foil is very different in terms of mechanics, and pumping in waves is also different to flat water, so one 2.5hr session was not enough to unlock all of that. But, I was able to dig the small foil out from low on the mast and low speed much more easily, and with that I found it much easier and more comfortable to cruise at the very slow 5-6s period wave speed we had. I could up and over pretty much at will without needing to engage the wing and build up a bunch of speed, very new development for me. So, I do think there is a fair bit of carryover from big to small.
This bit might not be relevant to experienced prone foilers as pitch control requirements for that already seem pretty high, but for me the most noticeable gain from the dockstarting was the improved pitch control, because it was relevant everywhere - turning on a wave, gliding through a jibe, linking waves, going upwind almost straight into a short steep sea state. Everything was just easier and less rushed.
Definitely noticed the improved cardio from doing intervals (dockstarts) 2-3 times a week as well.
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This thread is gold, your post @Meow stood out to me as I’m really interested in how the Code R performs for dockstarting and flat water pumping. I’m flat water pumping (currently on a big slow SABfoil 1350) and looking to make the step up to downwind and wake thieving on inland lakes. I’d love a setup which can cover that range. Unfortunately nobody around me has Code I could try. I’m specifically wondering whether the Code 860R or 960R is comparable to the ART Pro 1201 or 1401 in speed and ease of pumping despite the smaller surface area. Do you have any insight into this? And you said you dockstarted the 860R, does it require a long run on the dock to get the speed, or is it possible with a higher dock and a powerful leap?
I do notice that you haven’t mentioned DW Sup as a potential method to learning how to pump.
Would you say that it’s of any benefit? Purely hypothetical because I still suck at DW - but let’s say I can get up in bumps on a similar foil that I would be prone foiling with (maybe one size up), and I can link bumps easy enough by pumping diagonally DW. Then I could start playing around with peeling off the back of bumps and pumping more perpendicular to the wind line. Finally you could progress to peeling off and pumping against the windline?
In a perfect scenario you’d be able to spend way more repetitions of pumping which kind of mimics peeling off a wave shoulder, and if you get gassed you can abort pumping and go back to riding a bump because they’re obviously much shorter period than in a surfing lineup? Then recover on the glide (hopefully if the bumps are good), and just keep repeating?