Awesome information.
Thanks heaps.
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I think for those of us that have dw sup foil experience then bump assistance gives you a big advantage on the bottom end compared to flat water. Sometimes I get up on a good bump and there isn’t enough wind to keep foiling without pumping foil and parawing.
For many early in the parawinging curve it will be much easier to get up in flat water provided they have enough board.
I find there is always energy going at right angle to the bumps away from the coast. It’s not as steep or obvious but it’s reliably there.
Its hard to explain but I can immediately tell when a gust and bump are about to line up and i’m guaranteed to get up. If i dont have that sense I *sometimes* can eek out a popup but its tough.
Toeside works better do catch a bump for me.
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Yesterday the stars lined up for the big test. Starting around 16kts and finishing around 28kts over 2h30, with a growing sea, crossed swell making angle and speed limited. I did 6 runs, A-B-C-A-B-C, with increasing wind on each run. The first 3 runs are testing the low end, the next 3 runs the top end. The zap might have been a bit advantaged on run 3 with a bit more wind than run 1 and 2, but it is disadvantaged by less surface area. Using the same setup as before, midlength 6’3 by 18’5, 65L, 85cm Afs UHM mast, Silk 950 v2, titanium fuse, ucarve 130 for an 80kg rider.
Another session in 20-30kts in flatter sea for the upwind leg showed better angles, close to 45 degrees to the wind for the zap, and 55 for the hybrid. Stats on the afterburner are biased there as I only did one perfect run upwind, but it feels like an orbit maybe in terms of vmg. Sharing this to illustrate the angles, this one is not a rigorous comparison.
How the parawings felt :
Hybrid :
- Most low and top end, super good at absorbing gusts, easiest to pack and redeploy.
– Quite slow and does not generate so much apparent wind.
Orbit :
- Trim system adding low end grunt and adjustable camber while in flight. Light bar pressure, cuts through the wind. Light fabric, semi open trailing edge and short lines making the pack and redeploy still not so hard.
– Wild collapses if not trimmed and piloted properly, especially in high choppy seas, strong winds, tired pilot. Quite unstable in roll and pitch (think short fuselage), which makes it hard to push against at speed.
Zap :
- Solid feel, very fine tuned bar, stable and reliable at speed to push hard. Best sensation going upwind of all 3.
– Thicker fabric, long lines, small trailing edge holes, making the packing longer and harder. No trim system, removing a bit of potential low end. Pulls quite a bit on the top end (generating lift).
Afterburner :
- Solid feel and fine tuned bar inspiring confidence to push at speed. Easy to pack and redeploy. Great low end grunt. Single skin advantages..
– Many battens when packing. Trailing edge flutter on the top end.
VMG is really hard to measure and compare rigorously. Everything affects it. Best way to measure it is probably A-B-A-B, constant wind strength and direction, no algae, long tacks to smooth out falls and wind holes, ideally same distance on each tack.
(full post VMG battle – 777 Hybrid 4.3 vs PPC Orbit 4.5 vs Flysurfer Zap 4 – Foilstate)
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Outstanding comparative work here Remy. Immensely grateful for this!
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top class review, and the stash video is perfect, thank you for the details!
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Looking forward to the Zap v. AB comparison as well as the influence your foil plays on VMG. 
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Super helpful, thanks! Trying to decide which to get. Maybe the best for lighter winds would be the afterburner? I have the 5.3 paia and I am hesitant to by a double skin after that one.
I owned a 4.5 Paia and the Zap is much better, better low end, faster and without the handling quirks of the paia. The Paia was much easier to douse though. I haven’t had a chance to try an afterburner but I would expect it’s probably a better choice if you are looking at the 5.0+ size range but I haven’t tried one yet. The hybrid is also easy to fly and low bulk but not as high performance as the Zap in my experience
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If you have a chance you should try a smaller foil, I did a quick calc and a 780cm foil at my 95kg is equivalent a 655cm foil at 80kg (0.122kg/cm2 wing loading). That is probably why I’m going a bit faster. I did a few tacks on my 1300 the other day and I was way slower and not pointing any higher than my normal foil.
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Amazing dedication from you Remy.
Incredible effort and information. Afterburner looks very promising as the best compromises.
I know Bryan also made mention of the ppc wild collapses. What do you think is occurring and although you say tired pilot are they easily avoidable? I imagine because of the comparatively very light bar pressure there might be a tendency to use too much trim without knowing or needing it. With one due to arrive any day I would love to avoid any potential for an injury.
Much gratitude from me to you.
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Probably afterburner for under 20kts. Above 20kts, need to do an A-B test with orbit/zap to see where it ranks
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Thanks! It seems to be when using too much trim for the given wind, a cambered profile tends to be more pitch unstable, shoot forward further in the wind window and be prone to collapses. I used the orbit 3.5 in 30+kts gusty winds fully untrimmed and never had any collapses.
Talking to Sam, he is advising to use the trim system to get up and going, once flying use as little trim as possible for optimal vmg. I will try to test different trim levels in the water and compare.
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Yes! Starting to dive into the geometry of vmg.. putting the interactive vmg chart there VMG – Foilstate, assuming the minimum apparent wind angle is 30 degrees for the zap (hard to know what the actual number is), maximum vmg happens when board speed = true wind speed. So 13kts of board speed on the last test is the main limit, especially as the wind picks up. And it’s going to be the main limiting factor as parawings get better and their maximum apparent wind angle get better.. When your speed is maxed out you can point higher but that will get you to a vmg that is below the potential maximum.
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good tips 
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Reporting back on my PPC Orbit 2.7 after 2 sessions at the very bottom of the wind range for this wing. 16 to 22 knots with lots of big holes in the middle of each tack. I probably would have survived on a 3.6 PRV2 but pushing it for my weight.
The interesting thing so far is that i am getting just .5knt VMG lower than the best of my PRV2 sessions where i am right on the very top end and leaning hard right on the edge of safe and sometimes beyond. Orbit 7.5 best segment and 6.5 effective climb and still plenty to get use to with piloting the Orbit to its best.
The comfort of the PPC is very very addictive. On the gusts the angle ramps up considerably. I think i would continue to choose the Orbit even though it was the very bottom of its range just for the comfort. I didn’t expect it to perform that well in that wind but obviously if I had a 3.5 i would have been on that.
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All the 2:1s in here (and @FoilMad’s nudge) got me pulling my own climbing vs downwind time. I’ve put my data and some potential UI mocks here.
Foil Run splits sessions into climbs and runs, so I have the numbers, just not a good way to show them yet. Is it something you’d check after every session, or more a number you’d watch over a season or when you switch wings?
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@wrench The little summary bar with the “new” in the border is gold. It would make more sense to me though if it was inversed. You have climbing/DW for 1.7 ratio but it would make more sense to say DW/Climbing = 59% Your getting back 59% of your climb in DW. Hopefully one day we will be getting better than 100%. hahaha Ribbon in order looks good to me.
I like the sailing VMG in the summary with the best climb know that i know what it is.
Love the comparison between your PRV1 and the afterburner.
Great job by the way.
This is awesome @wrench! Love the direction you are going here.
I personally am not so invested in the UW/DW ratio, but I think it’s a great metric. What I’ve really been hoping for is a way to search my logged sessions by best VMG, as well as seeing my VMG progression over time, and your example here could work for that as well it seems. I really like example #2 since one can see the difference in wing performance and find the session on the timeline easily, which fulfills my hope of being able to find my best sessions VMG-wise and break it down by wing. Personally I’d rather the base chart data be VMG with a ratio calculation figure available per session since the DW part of the ratio is going to be so varied between riders depending on if their goals are speed or shred, but it’s good either way imo.
For the per session data I prefer A, the ribbon in order. That makes it easy to see when a fall broke up the data.
My last wish is shown on your Per Session graphic shown here:
I’m assuming this is a phone app graphic but I’ve really been hoping for a similar color separation on the browser version using the direction relative to the wind as the basis for color. You already have green and red for starboard and port tacks. I would be super stoked to see everything from a broad reach and downwind from there with a dedicated color so I can see my run attempts easily through the spaghetti even when it’s not long enough to get tagged as a “run.”
Thanks for doing all of this, it’s really amazing work and much appreciated!
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