Its actually an interesting point because the last thing prone foilers need is for their surf foils to be designed around foil drive requirements and the relatively low standard of foiler that rides them.
Yes there are pro’s that ride FD who are paid or get them for free but talk to them off the record and the acknowledgement is quickly there that its a race to the bottom in terms of performance.
I feel like the prone foilers are still here but additionally we have a whole new wave of new surf foilers trying to make the jump from winging and non wave disciplines.
I am not a ripper, but nearly every foil driver (aside from industry/sponsored/pro-ish) I’ve seen locally does the same type of cut short, nursed, non-turn, and doesn’t know how to pump. They tend to be “gear guys” too.
I hope they don’t design too much around those guys.
It would be cool to add a “dumpster diver” category or separate series for best surf groveling foil.
problem is conditions are just too good I PR
I’m looking for the most agile wing for surfing. But since I’m not motorized: it has to chip into anything, has to climb whitewater, pump at least good enough to get to an outside bomb or a couple waves of connections, grave dig…
it would be pretty sad if prone foiling was a dying thing. No one locally has bothered to figure it out and I’ve been squatting circles around them for about 5 years now.
Several old surf friends have bought foil setups but then are too embarrassed to give it a solid commitment and then give up.
It’s an interesting time. I think surf foils are still the pinnacle as you have the hardest opposite dual roles to fill: ripping turns fast and slow and then pumping through whitewater
I feel like the farther you get away from prone the less good design matters. The dominance of wing early on resulted in all the bendy masts and weak connections just because it didn’t matter winging. I feel like downwind kind of saved prone because - even though it was designed for a slightly different application - good design still mattered and it brought the industry back to stiffness, power transfer, and good design.
If anyone wants a test of these foils in 2.5 & 5sec send em and I’ll do a whole video series and a Mediocre episode!
I think I did a point that would actually be helpful across the board would be foil depth. I notice some of these foils have more anhedral than other plus the mast height measurement variances…I know for me the silks look like a lot of anhedral so I’d probably want to go a few CM shorter to keep it off the bottom
Ya nailed it on the head. I doubt there’s a huge difference between new surf foils and the kujira2 or silkv1, they are already so similar. And they both can’t pump well enough to realistically be on foil for several minutes connecting and ripping. Every video of a pro on a MK2 ma will be towed around or on a foil drive. When you’re on a tow you could be on a 4 year surf foil and it’ll be just as good as what’s coming out now. I’m sticking with my v1 silk esp since they made it worse this year by making it non monobloc. Also keep in mind good foilers can rip harder on a code s or f4 orca (and stay on foil for several minutes by pumping) then the wanna bes on foil drive with their latest surf foils. If it can’t pump insanely well it’s not a real foil.
It depends on the break and what you want to do. I think my current daily, the north 680 is pretty close to these in terms of pump-ability and I really just want a hair, a whisper, more bottom end. I can pump indefinitely with beneficial wind, do brief loops Into the wind if I have speed, but if it’s small and I’m hurting for speed AND there’s no wind it struggles.
i’d also say that I’m really pushing my limits on that setup at that size and if anything is wrong or worse I feel it immediately and it’s a disaster. I just tried the cedrus aluminum and it’s probably a fine bast but it was a step in the wrong direction and I couldn’t live with it.
I’m shopping for a 750 which I think could be better but I’ve seen that the north 680 fights above it’s weight and if I’m investing in a new system I have to KNOW it’s an improvement.
One thing is clear, the definition of a surf/prone foil depends on your local conditions. What’s the best surfboard - performance thruster, quad fish, twinny, gun, glider, mal, etc. Bla bla.
I was ready to agree with @TooMuchEpoxy- there’s only a few tow crews that deserve/need a high energy surf foil, in America, and Aus, and Instagram (aka the world)… but then a few months ago 5 of my local’s strapless wave kiters decided to start kite wave foiling. All these guys are interested in is carving tight turns powered, they don’t give a sht about pump/glide. My favourite brand had no stock of their latest surf wing, so these guys are now ripping old second hand fat low aspect surf wings. They will definitely upgrade in the next year. I suspect the same will happen at other spots as the assisted gear-head ventures into steeper waves or the wingers start flagging into bigger sets.
I doubt the big brands will be developing “MA” surf wings if there’s no market for them. Lift and Uni are surf-specific foil brands with up to 3 models for different conditions. Axis and Fone have 2 prone/surf models each.
I suspect with all the Li-ion-heads around well be seeing alot more R&D&$ going into “surf foils”.
@Dylan just listened to episode 2, was also interesting, this is good stuff
You guys can’t say “this was better than that” for the podcast audio only people who can’t see what you’re pointing at
ending it with “they are all pretty comparable” basically is another way of saying “we aren’t good enough to really find which of these foils is better than the other”
Would be pretty happy on all of these foils. Honestly.
We will have a round out, but we try to say who it may be for. And I have a pretty good idea of what someone might be looking for based on skill, conditions and sport. It would be a pile to talk over.
For sure there are favorite feel, very personal. And some days my favorite foil feels like crap, but we all have off days. Would need a few months of riding to get to my bottom line depending on sport.
I’m not happy on one foil anymore because they all feel different and give different sensation and make you a better foiler switching from one to another as you get tuned in. If I had to pick and put my money on it, or your money on it. I could narrow it down.
I would love for someone to be good enough to be able to hit every nail on the head with every set up. Reality is there is less good and bad foils these days. I want to find a dog in the bunch. It’s my goal foil designers and Foiler’s are getting really good.
You will have to watch the YouTube if you want visuals. We tried to not jump too much. But we were on a rolll
Great thread! Thanks Dylan and everyone for the input. I’m looking for a new foil and full setup, and this feedback is great for tracking my options. I think that someone may have said that the instead of just finding the highest-performing foil, may better to look for a system that provides the most flexibility for different types of riding. I mostly prone, but would like to have some other options.
Gun to head. if you had to pick your favorite for pumping over/ through whitewater/ turbulence and grave digging out of a slowed down / low on the mast situation, which one so far?
maybe on the towing / epic wave conditions you never had to be there but if you had to pick one or rank them.
I’ve found those situations can be where I might feel leading edge tubercles (afs) making maybe a little difference in a good way (I describe the difference sort of like mountain bike tires vs some racing slicks) however, in better conditions I prefer non tubercles.
Mast/ overall stiffness matters a lot for the turbulence management and whitewater climbing .
I’ve personally never experienced the feeling of a foil being “too fast” for staying in the pocket white foiling so I lean towards the higher aspect / glider foils/ “faster”. (Maybe this rules out fliteLAB and cab whippet for me) . I think this might be because I still surf a lot so I don’t necessarily try to replicate surfing when foiling vs letting the feels only foiling allows shine when foiling.
Pretty curious about the axis surge from watching the pros rip on it. But that’s always a dangerous way to evaluate a foil .
And for those of us who can’t afford more than a couple foils. I would argue that the “surf downwind” box is a mandatory box to check so I’d rule out any “surf” foil that wouldn’t be fun to DW with on top of being able to be prone foiled. I know there is a case to design a foil specifically for one situation and it will always be a compromise but it would help narrow the list down. Maybe someone should come up with “good wood” snowboard test style scoring categories for generating a “score” . I know you arnt trying to pick favorites but if you could score categories it could be a subjective way to help people interpret the findings and rule foils off the list depending on personal preference/ areas someone cares about
Some of the quantitative stats for any given foil can actually be measured pretty easily, especially with a towing source. For example any given tester could do a series of pumping duration times and get an average pump ability score. On the right day one of the dream test would also be some footage of back to back no pump connection attempts for some sort of in the surf glide score. I’ve been curious if that ability is vastly just a matter of the AR or more complicated. This test could also be done behind the boat on a wake surf setup. Not exactly the same as in the ocean at all, but a consistent set of waves to connect between. Tip breach ability is also pretty black and white , sorry if it’s already been stated that they all can breach tip no problem.
back to the same problem we always face. The sport is too small to have anyone invest the time/ money in a full unbiased seasonal testing program
not that Dylan / x files is not in the right direction, I love it. But unifoil probably won’t be in the mix, which it should be.
I would argue you can’t have both a good prone foil that you downwind unless you have some sort of extrordinary local circumstance for downwinding. Even in the gourge the guys were riding much larger surf foil than they would prone on.
Now for Pump you might find the F4 manta and the Flux best size for size at pumping.
foil designers and Foiler’s are getting really good.