Manta Foils Flow: Buyer Beware

[EmeryThrill]

Hi All,

Thought I would share my initial experiences with the Manta Foils Flow. I received my unit about a week ago, and it’s been a rocky-ride throughout the process dealing with the company. I have been proactive with dealing with them directly in a measured way, and think that we have to be patient in nurturing the businesses that serve our relatively small and niche sport.

On the other hand, I think a purchase of a $3,000-4,000 e-foil accessory can be a big investment for anyone - and if they don’t work - a terrible waste of resources.

Prior to delivery/Kickstarter
When MantaFoils first announced their product on Facebook, they advertised a $2,400 special launch price, with a $200 OFF coupon for $25 backers at the beginning of January 2024, incredible! However, after paying the small deposit ($25), we were corralled into a Facebook group, where we learned of an upcoming Kickstarter that was open to the general public, with a small (20?) number of slots available at that original price, despite there being 150+ original deposits. After a lot of public pushback we were able to get Manta to honor the original offer.

The waiting period, and a shift from Air to Flow/Air
Units that were originally expected to be complete and available by April/May -didn’t ship until mid-September (not entirely unexpected). Manta handled this period well and proactively - posting updates to Facebook and via Email, as well as offering various transitional options for folks wanting to shift their investment over to the Flow which was introduced. With the addition of an external antenna ($125?) and shipping ($150?) my check was $2,675 with $25 prepaid = $2,700 in - still a great value.

Shipping and Taxes
Prior to shipping we all received a note from UPS about the expected import duties ($357) into the US, now bringing total investment up to $3,000. Manta Foils seemed amused by people being surprised by this:

This may be true - but actively adjusting expectations here seems like a better way to manage all of that. Handling this at checkout would be even better.

Product Experience and First Time Use
Unboxing the unit - I was impressed overall by much of the build quality and packaging. The OLED screens are bright, the components seem well made. My battery closure screw is both crooked and doesn’t line up when tight - a bit concerning. Lining up all of the screws was a huge PITA, and assembly process has you jumping back and forth between Torx and Allen keys across 5-10 sizes.

Some choices seemed over-engineered decisions - to the difficult to assemble cable guides, to the complicated pod-shimming system that still wasn’t able to fully grasp my high mod mast without damaging it. The whole setup is about 20lbs+ pounds, and is 1.5-2kg over the advertised weight. There are a number of missed marketing promises here from weight, to compatibility, to ease of connections. The biggest issue however for me and other users has been the inability to maintain reliable and smooth modulating power. The motor cuts out repeatedly and unexpectedly, making the product unusable.

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Product Instructions
It’s possible that there are optimizations possible on the user side, but the product comes with minimal instructions. There are videos, but in some cases they rush through crucial aspects of remote control setup - gesturing to parameters that are important to get right, but without voice-over for how to solve specific problems. The paid antenna accessory for example comes with no instructions … and removing the old antenna destroys a gasket or glue - manta has recommended a few suppliers for various components needed to make the whole thing work, but is primarily reactive in this department.

Response from Manta
In reaching out on connection issues in particular, they have said that they will need the customer to locate an Android phone, then go through some firmware installation steps. Despite having iOS and Android support for their other products, they do not yet have these for the TakeOff system. There are no other workarounds if you are on iOS. No returns or partial refunds, per the firewall placed around this by the IndieGoGo campaign. No discussion allowed in their Facebook group per the moderators, so customers have started our own group to try to help each other out.

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This has been a bad experience - and I shudder at the additional investment needed to make this work: a dedicated mast, a dedicated custom board. In many ways the modularity is what is killing their product experience - as there just hasn’t been the refinement invested in brand-by-brand pods, or other considerations outside of a traditional e-foil product.

We know what we are signing up with regard to steep discounts on launch products, and for example I have no problem with them sending out additional components with revised plastic parts after initial failures. However, the despondence with which they have responded to concerns around connections is a non starter. Many users (including me), are also experiencing out of phase motor issues where the whole unit will shudder and shake the board. But I don’t think they will work on fixing this until we force them to work on it.

These cannot be considered to be lower cost foil drives, if they can’t be floated by a typical prone, mid length, or wing foil board — nor can they be considered to be a foil drive at all if you don’t know when that motor will or won’t kick in. What does capacity and range matter if you think the unit might leave you stranded?

In Conclusion
I’ll post an update if things improve, but for now I would be very wary given where they are at, and how they have handled feedback from initial customers. There seems to be an empathy gap here in that at the end of the day this is an e-foil team, rather than a surf team that efoils, so issues around incompatibility with masts and boards they don’t produce may never get prioritized. My recommendation to them is to interview or watch customers go through the Buy->Setup->Use journey, and let the sticking points be folded back into their decisions to make the experience better. Curious to hear how this is going for other users.

[beepityboppityboop]

Good on you for posting, people should be less afraid to publicize their bad experiences with bad companies and bad products. Helps the rest of us not waste money

The $300 extra import is definitely BS they should have stated while ordering. If you paid with a good credit card you can try to do a chargeback - then they will reach out to you.

[Kurtis]

I look at this whole purchase in a different light. Of course I was on the front end of the crowd fund, so I did get the cheapest advertised price.

I understood when I paid money into indiegogo that it was a gamble at best whether I would receive a useable product. During the updates I became more worried as I never saw a deep water start…

Fast forward to now. I have a product that I feel has more power than other assist products I have used. (Slightly higher volage)
The batteries appear to last longer than the competitor and I can fly with them.

There are however some quirky things going on that I do feel like are being resolved on the back end.
My unit has a delay from when I pull the trigger to when the prop starts turning. It seems to be a software issue and Manta has been good to respond to help trouble shoot. They are trying to replicate issues to solve them.
The out of phase issue mentioned above has happened to me a couple of times. I am not sure whats causing it. Almost like the motor starts up without the magnets aligned.

Regarding assembly, I don’t have anything to compare it to, but it took me about an hour the first go round while I was double checking things along the way.

If I had ordered a brand new retail priced assist unit and had these issues, I’d have been upset. But the discout that was offered by buying during the crowd funding campaign sort of dictates we are going to be guinea pigs to help refine the product.

All in all these products are all a couple generations from being really refined in my opinion.

[Erwin_VMG]

Thank you for the warning…I was also deceived into giving $25 last January

[Leepasty]

I also wasted $25 but pulled out once the other strange things happened and glad I did.
Still not seen anyone catching waves on one yet and would say anyone would be better off buying a foil drive

[MantaFoils]

Hi All, Dear EmeryThrill,

Sorry to hear your frustration, rest assured that our team has been working around the clock to deliver the product and are still on top of all the initial glitches that are being reported.

Just to reply on the above raised points:

1. On the 25 USD pre booking page there was mentioned about the limited quantities (see screenshot).
   
   

Seeing everyone’s feedback, we later on released the same discount for all backers to support the backers and gather more of them.

2. Shipping and taxes
   It has been clearly mentioned in the Campaign’s FAQ, among many other clarifications, that duties and taxes excluded. And it’s normal for any product shipped from China to anywhere that countries will ask for import duties. There was simply no way for us to anticipate and charge ahead those duties for each country, as they all have specific rules. See below the link of the FAQ, look for “Duties” in the page.
   TakeOff: Electric Motor Assist for Foiling | Indiegogo

3. Assembly: additional rubbers have recently shipped and regarding tools, not sure how many tools you are referring to:
   a. M3 torx (receiver and motor cable)
   b. M4 allen (top clamp)
   c. M6 allen (pod)
   d. M6 torx (cable cover)

4. Motor / propeller related concerns:
   Four different situations have been reported by some users while many others are riding flawlessly. All below points are being addressed as we speak and customers who raised their issues on email are updated as progress is made:
   a. Motor cutting after gear 10 → ESC configuration not loaded properly at factory (an email and a post was sent to all customers to inform that this could be resolved with our support team)
   b. Random cut (few times over an hour): being fixed as we speak. An update will release as soon as we have confirmed by enough testing
   c. Delay in propeller opening after pressing trigger (about 0.5-1s) : fixed at our end, will be part of next update.
   d. Propeller sometimes not unfolding properly when entering the water and pressing the trigger with prop in water: starting the propeller before hitting the water resolves this issue. Our team checking design improvements to enhance this aspect.

5. External Antenna
   Yes a user guide video will be produced shortly. Meanwhile we have a quick video explaining this that we can send you by email. About the seals, an email with pictures and explanations have be shared in PDF notes and the only thing required is to use the spare provided seal that has bigger section. For users that plan to never remove the module we also recommended adding silicone for extra water barrier.

6. Application available for iOS
   Not sure when you reached out for support but we do have both iOS and Android app. However for the ESC configuration (if there’s a need to reconfigure it together), Android Store has a free application that we are sharing, while iOS App Store has a paid one. It is known that the Android app works better and there have been instances in the past while iOS one did not connect properly to the ESC (ESC manufacturer dependant… not Manta dependant).

7. What you refer as out of phase has been addressed above as part of ESC/motor/propeller explanation.

We are well listening to comments received through emails and taking necessary actions to solve issues. The replacement in the first weeks of the all the parts sent is an example of it. Launching the Flow in parallel and offering it as a free swap is another example of it.

Being a crowd funded project, product design and production was not final at the time of the campaign and there was some potential delay to be expected. This was indicated before checking out during the campaign.
On the bright side, by now, nearly all customers have received their units and even received already the replacement parts.

Overall, the feedback we received confirmed to us that the TakeOff offers a great value, at a great price. Yes there have been some initial glitches with some clients’ units, and our team has not ignored any of them. And while everything takes time to get sorted, we remain fully committed.

[MantaFoils]

Hi Lee, we invite you to follow our social media as we’ve been reposting quite some posts about happy customers riding waves. Hope we can make you try it soon. : )

[MantaFoils]

Hello! As explained above, the fact that import duties were not included was clearly mentioned from the very beginning. You can check the FAQ page of the campaign that did not move since last Jan (frozen from Day 1 of the campaign):

TakeOff: Electric Motor Assist for Foiling

Look for “duties” and you’ll see the paragraph.

And yes we do reply to all customers writing to “support at manta” on a daily basis. : )

[Leepasty]

I follow and the only wave riding is from your promo with Titouian on n Mauritius.
Not seen any customers using a take off in waves or anyone other than Titouian.
A few clips efoiling on the take off but no waves ?

[EmeryThrill]

I appreciate Manta jumping into the discussion here, and am open to sharing a positive experience once everything is resolved.

The individual updates are a lot to manage and are primarily reactive - please consider addressing issues proactively - especially if known. To date I am trying to track and solve quite a number of outstanding issues:

1. Replace motor pod
2. Add additional rubber tape to motor pod (and repair mast damage!)
3. Check battery seal based on injection mold type due to misalignment
4. Check antenna seal (replace with o-ring once received, or order silicon)
5. Order motor lubricant
6. Replace spacer for motor assembly
7. Download 3rd party app (Not Manta app) for ESC firmware update
8. Relocate antenna once firmware is updated to see if connection issue can be solved
9. Un-pair, and re-pair remote to unit (another user shared this tip).

It’s a lot to take in - and some of these appear to be issues that customers are experiencing but responses are scattered across channels: Public and Private YT videos, email, indiegogo, FB groups, and even this thread. Providing a check list with helpful materials would make this easier to manage, even if only for a closed group.

Take the feedback at face-value. Not everything is actionable or broadly-experienced, but I don’t think you should necessarily try to correct every customer complaint: For example

1. Surprise Taxes. It looks like there was a mention in the FAQ - but it did say this would be collected at checkout, which was not true. You have also re-iterated that this is typical and routine when buying goods from China - but I had never experienced it before (I don’t routinely import, and am not a retailer).

2. Lots of Tools. I counted up the wrenches in my kit- and there are 3 Torx and 5 Allen keys (8 total). It looks like maybe there are two of the same size Allen keys - regardless- a lot unlabelled screws and tools - this honestly isn’t likely avoidable - and no more fiddly than FoilDrive, but why debate this?
   

   

3. Mobile apps. There is a Manta App - but I am unclear on how it should be used. The setup video refers directly to ‘critical’ device settings - but this section is rushed. Customer service referred to a 3rd party app, and didn’t mention an iOS app - reiterating an Android phone was needed to proceed.

Consider addressing gaps between initial design and final production
Weight is a big issue in terms of performance, feel, and can even compound other issues (submerging a board could compound connection issues). Excluding the Motor and other components, Manta advertised a 6kg battery pack.

However, the actual production weight was quite a bit heavier - 7.1kg (1.1kg, 2.2lbs - or 18% heavier than expected). 9kg if you include the motor, hardware, cable guides, etc.

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Pulling together more information to help people more easily get going and share their good experiences would go a long way. The unit can’t be changed once tooled and shipped - but much of the rest of the experience (the community, the support, the videos) can be overhauled rapidly - and would go a long way.

Optimize user experience (e.g. have strangers try using it)
Just as an example, the remote guide is 15 min long, but the words can’t be read due to the contrast and zoom level… even when viewed on a 15" laptop screen. Now imagine you are viewing this on your phone setting up the board in a garage, or in a parking lot, or at the beach, or at the dock and it’s impossible.

Thank you for taking the feedback.

[lbd]

Thanks for the heads up. do not want to go down that road

[scaldewi]

Hi, all the issues during the product launch have been discussed above. I also want to thank Manta for being open to criticism.

I am one of the customers who used the Stokefoil device and switched to the Manta Takeoff after the campaign, paying the regular price.

First, let me explain why I chose the Manta Foils Takeoff:

I was very satisfied with my Stokefoil, which performed its intended function with a high-quality industrial design and ease of use. However, the battery capacity was a drawback for me as I am just starting my journey with pumpfoiling, pronefoiling, and downwinding, although I’ve been an advanced wingfoiler for four seasons now (downwinding with the help of a wing is no problem).

I decided to purchase the Manta Takeoff because of its promise of a larger battery and greater range. I also trusted the brand, thinking their years of experience with efoil devices would result in a quality product.

The delivery took some time, as Manta implemented Engineering Change Orders (ECOs) before shipping, which I saw as a sign of quality rather than a flaw.

I received my package late in Spain as we were already traveling, which made the device slightly more expensive due to Spain’s 2% higher VAT.

Upon realizing the package was incomplete, with the cable guides missing, Manta explained in a friendly manner that they would send the missing parts for free as soon as they were available. This was mentioned in an email from them, though it wasn’t entirely clear to me.

I eventually received the missing parts, also in Spain.

Throughout the process, Manta’s communication was friendly and factual.

After several sessions with the Takeoff, I am happy with its performance. Yesterday, I met another rider using the Foil Drive Gen2, who was an advanced user with over 1,000 km on the device.

The battery range is impressive. In my first two sessions yesterday, one with an efficient front foil and another with a smaller one that consumed more energy, I managed to cover 11.2 and 6.4 kilometers respectively, with 19% battery remaining. As a beginner, I am still practicing the “low flight mode” (which is harder than I expected) and the “ollie phase.” The sessions totaled 1 hour and 30 minutes, with the trigger virtually engaged the entire time.

So, my reason for choosing the Manta Takeoff seems to be validated.

Another advantage to be mentioned is the thrust: using the 2-blade propeller still, i never used more than power 12 (effective frontfoil) to 14 (ineffective frontfoil) from a scale of 18.

Could someone be frustrated with the procedures involved in a new product? I would say “yes,” but I was aware of the risks and opportunities when betting on something new. While I can’t speak to long-term durability or quality yet, I am optimistic, as the overall build quality seems solid.

[kaimoana]

So the question is would you buy one again?
They seem 2/3rds the price of a foil drive over here.

[MantaFoils]

Hello! Keep following our Insta/Facebook as we repost customer videos riding in all kind of situations. I’ll share this one while we’re talking about it:

TakeOff = @mantafoils

Cheers : )

[MantaFoils]

Hello!

Thanks for the structured feedback, we indeed do value it. The idea of the previous message is not to debate it but to provide the intention/vision that we have.

We’re revised the remote video following your comments.

The remote’s next firmware update will also integrate more of this philosophy (clear info, more surf oriented), taking from riders’ feedback in the past weeks.

We’re also building tutorials for the aftersales topics you’ve mentioned, as for now it’s mainly us taking calls with customers. : )

Regarding weight, we’ve indeed added an extra kg on the Flow main unit as we reinforced the whole unit by sealing it with a epoxy/glue. The advantage is that it’s bulletproof, would anyone drop it on the floor or mistreat it. : ) (And yes good point we’ll adjust the website by the +1kg)

Also to mention that any update that was done in the past weeks (the upgrade kit sent to customer, and configuration adjustments) are already applied for all new kits departing.

Thanks again for your support on being one of the first backers : )

[MantaFoils]

Hello! You’ll be able to test it soon in NZ as we’re onboarding the dealer nowadays in Auckland area.
Note that almost all the start-up adjustments are behind us now and that kits leaving our factory do not need to check/adjust anything on them.
Cheers

[scaldewi]

Having had some sessions now with my Manta Takeoff Flow i would definately answer. YES, i would do it again.

[scaldewi]

Can confirm that technical issues are solved now. There are improvements coming in Software, but it already works fine for me.

[TakeoffAussies]

Hey guys thought I’d do a bit of a review on takeoff flow in the surf .Well havnt been in the surf for about 8 weeks so weds was the day conditions 5 foot high surf but me and my mate saw the big rollers way out the back . So after 10 mins waiting patiently to get past . We found our chance we’re off . No problem powering out gear 18 had plenty of juice . Made it out the back and just observed he swell lines looked perfect . I’m on a prone 5.5 x 55L middy I knocked it down a few gears to 16 I’m up and away felt really good just rode around for a while backing of throttle to see how smooth I could keep pod in the water switched up to gear 18 at this point cause I wanted 100% power to motor .
Ok so saw a wave out the back and headed out back hand assist whipped on to it . Dropped in instantly I felt at ease and very comfortable this unit was so comfortable to ride on the wave it was like because the takeoff unit being under the board kept me really stable in pitch. The code 980s was doing a great job too with plenty of glide and ease of turning. So here comes the test I thought am I going to be able to kick off the wave and respool motor ? Well the answer was yes absolutely no problems just pulled the trigger while on foil giving me plenty of time with speed dropped pod in and was away again !! Yeew this things a beast !
So after talking with Thomas Radiguet from Manta Foils he had advised me gear 18 , set throttle ramp to ultra fast and use the middle part of your finger on trigger for better control these tips were perfect and proof that takeoff flow in surf waves was awesome and heaps of fun it’s a very different feel in the surf when your getting ocean power and certainly proved itself to be well balanced on my board when I was on up on foil . I caught a stack of waves and I wasn’t going hard and still came in with 60% battery . My mate was out of battery on his assist plus . So overall
Very happy , you wait till you all get out in some decent surf your going to love it
Couple of pics to show pre spooling of the back below . Can’t wait to get out again now . Yeew !! Beware cause takeoff is fun

[Kurtis]

It should be noted that TakeoffAussies is a dealer in Australia.
I wish it was a requirement to disclose financial interest in the product prior to posting a review.