Hi guys. My to cents from Italy.
Here we have weak waves and also wind is not frequent in my region. I love SUP wavefoiling and I use a 7’4 downwind board to help to catch weak waves, I also winging from 10 knots to increase day in the water.
I am considering foil drive to improve faster and catch micro waves that today I struggle with due to poor paddle techniques and weak fitness at 54 with not much free-time. I would also go further far from shore break and stress less my shoulder and elbow that are painful after each session.
Here I think we have the risk to see foil end e-foil stopped by 2 factors:
Stupid people is a reality. Even few can create incident with consequences on regulation. As stupid people snake or drops in surfing but with much heavy consequences. Everyone will hate who catch every wave, wise e-foiler should search for quality and long ride instead of wave count.
Prices are out of any logic. With 5k euro I can by a full suspension e-mtb with battery, motor and electronics better than foil drive plus I have front-rear suspensions, disk brakes, aluminium frame, sprockets and so on. I would also say there are big margin on mtb… I can also buy easy a 2nd hand in perfect condition for 2k (which I did and I discover a new world of tracks).
I think 2k should be a premium price for stuff like that and 1.2-1.5k a good price to have “no-elite” market. Actually foil drive similar BOM from china spare market are not far from 1k.
One thing we should try to educate is if you try your FD or efoil where there is wind driven sports, such as wing, windsurfing or kitesurfing, you should go in the same direction as the windsport are going. We were in with a school of efoilers last week and they were going in any direction and when they are learning, they just look a feet before in front of their board while kneeling. Gee we needed to really really pay attention for them. Not a critics, they are learning, they do not know.
I think within the next ~2 years if competition kicks in, a foildrive could be around 1000 euros, and potentially even smaller/lighter. Time will tell.
Foiling getting banned is high probability unfortunately, not sure what can be done to stop the few people that will do the damage by lack of experience/consideration.
Here in the California Monterey Bay, there are a handful of FD users that have been going through the surf lineup and don’t give a F**K about what people think. All this BS of using the FD at places that are away from the crowds or when it’s not breaking is lip service. Because of these FDers, all motorized foils are banned in the entire bay. LAME!
I would really love to see foil assists at 1K under competitive pressure, but it doesn’t seem that we’re heading this direction.
If anything, the more time passes, the more Foildrive is proven to be the only one delivering an efficient and reliable product.
The only new competitor who entered the market (Manta Take off), if anything has strengthen Foildrive position by showing that by slightly reducing the price, they also had to very much reduce the overall quality of the product and its associated services. Just check the Facebook early adopter group and you discover that the product is literally dropshipped from a Chinese factory with little coordination with Manta themselves who have low control on the quality.
Erik made an interesting point - electric keeps his heartrate down so he can focus on turns.
For me one of the joys of foiling is that I keep my heartrate pretty high, which is one of the things I hated about surfing was sitting around waiting for sets and getting freezing and losing mobility after 40min.
Downside is that you really cannot turn when your heart is going.
WHO WOULD HAVE GUESSED
(used) Gen1 foil drives are at this price point, they work great. Loads for sale
This is still too niche a market, but I think there is the case for reducing the quality and size of all the components, one button wired to the motor, pod attached onto the board not the mast, Boost fin / flitelab style that only boosts you onto foil.
To be honest, it’s all about how you use it.
I’m mostly riding with Foildrive and still pump a lot.
The whole setup is now heavier by 6kg thanks to foildrive, believe me it takes some legwork to keep it moving.
Some other days I’m lazy and mostly motor.
Up to you.
The future is probably electric. I had a prone session in perfect foil waves, but required an inshore chip in and long pump out to link into the better waves, but heart rate ramps up so you don’t turn, or you ride a big foil that you can’t turn. The perfect foil wave will almost always require some chip in assistance, as it will be too slow and weak to break. Electric chips will be the future.
A buddy got a FD and MASSIVELY improved in the 2 months that he has had it. Full top to bottom rail to rail surfing. The progression was extremely quick. The one key insight - never bothered to learn to e-foil motor, ONLY used it to chip early into unbroken waves. I think if you are a FD user and you still suck, it is because you are motoring around too much. This is a fail (see this thread for why you still can’t turn on FD). The future of FD is to use the FD only as a paddle assist to catch waves, and spend as little time on motor as possible. This prolongs the battery, keeps the lineup and priority clearer, less buzz noise from motors, less awkward, etc
Failing efoil companies: I thought this video cataloguing all the bankrupt efoil and jetboard companies was somewhat interesting. One common theme - the owners didn’t know much about nor care about the industry they were selling into. This makes me think that the likes of FD and other brands that are clearly nerding out on the user feedback and building excellent products will survive. The nuance that goes into making FD a great product is insane. (same for Zerotow, though it is not being pushed as hard commercially, thankfully I guess). Being almost unreasonably product and user oriented is the only way!
AMP - A peek at what I guess is trending towards production ready AMP board. I personally think this might be the future for high performance surfing as I think the ultimate value is chipping in (see point 2, it’s about chipping into waves, not motoring around like a kook)
Trench boards have effectively created a standard around which other products will fit into (who would buy a Manta if it’s too wide to fit into the trenches? I guess it’s too wide?). Every single FD user I’ve seen has swapped over with varying happiness, the main issue is the box can’t go forward enough.
Tow boogie remains the wild card. It is obviously the closest thing to tow foiling, and tow foiling is obviously “the best”. Small light board, small foil, maximum foil pleasure. I’ve just got around to first runs on my DIY version. This thing is rad. Primary issue is that they are currently limited to relatively calm flat conditions, but I see that as small issues to improve on. I see huge IP value in the follow me mode of Zerotow. I also see complex legal stuff around using one in most countries (pretty obviously motorised, as opposed to a FD setup which just looks probably motorised).
Chinese made (I mean if things stay much the same) versions of these will obviously start finding their way to the market. For example a random foil drive. I think it is much better to support the brands building the innovation as they will have a much stronger sense of what the user problems are, and support their customers directly, but eventually once the final form factor is settled and products stop innovating, it really won’t take long for Chinese products to catch up and win the market. You can get a very crude but probably viable tow boogie motor set for $1500. This same company makes very good electronics, so not to be sniffed at! (note the price point, this looks like a bigger battery and motor setup than a FD max pro)
As a comparison, these products seemed to have ended up winning the e-skate market with a very responsive mixture of D2C, fast iteration and actual customer sensitivity (point 3 above).
As said, random thoughts. I have no insider knowledge. To me, first prize is a magical someone who lives at the backline and appears and tows you into waves whenever you need a wave, and second prize is an electronic version of that.
Just to make it clear, this video below is what I’m talking about. This is the way to progress with FD. Take off on unbroken clean waves, and the two critical steps:
keep your front hand on the nose of the board while you standup, this keeps the board trim correct and the nose down while you are still on motor power
when you popup, do it deliberately in a clean pop, to clear the motor from the water, this means you never have your feet forward, you are straight into riding mode
Step one is more important, as what you are trying to do is place your feet really far back, in the appropriate motor-free riding position. This is about 2-3" back from where you’d be standing if you were in power mode. The hand on the nose keeps the trim while allowing you to plant your feet really far back.
Josh does the above steps, and even still moves his feet back an inch when he stands up.
This is all probably easier if you can already prone as you have some sense of timing.
The Josh Ku video highlights an extremely skilled foiler, an early adopter who understands both the lineup and respectful Foil Drive use. What’s happening now is much more concerning.
The second wave of adopters consists of surfers who couldn’t (or wouldn’t) put in the time to learn to prone foil or SUP foil using their own paddle power. They motor 100% of the time, bring multiple batteries to extend sessions, and use powered assist to turn on the wave face — avoiding the need to paddle, pop up, or properly read waves.
Worse are the complete beginners entering the surf lineup. Many start by efoiling or being towed behind boats, then move straight into the surf without any foundational knowledge of ocean dynamics.
When I was recently training someone on a Foil Drive one-on-one — with no one else around — I encouraged them to buzz around freely since there was no lineup to respect. Only then did I realize they had no concept of where waves break or how to find pockets of energy. In a real lineup, this becomes dangerous: true beginners can only follow others, clustering near surfers just to figure out where the waves are.
Without basic ocean knowledge, etiquette can’t even be taught. They aren’t intentionally disrespectful — they simply don’t know. Similar to the proliferation of e-bikes, this trend toward motorized foiling will continue — and we ‘traditionalists’ are doomed.
Haven’t you heard, foil drive is over, all the cool kids are on to parawing now! It’s really amazing, the foil drive gave everyone foiling without cardio, parawing gave everyone downwind without paddles - I can’t believe people hate paddles more than cardio!
Awsi 2025 bingo card items -
Scooter style handles,
Gas powered foil,
A new hand wing with a carbon leading edge and one end is attached to the board.
The importance of human aero(skin suits and shaved legs)
Really really well trained birds replacing parawing.
Axis has a new DW/pump front wing(free space)
This puritanical view that only if you paddle and struggle are you worthy of sharing the waves. Anything motorized is cheating and not worthy…? Get over yourself.
If it enables a bunch of people who wouldn’t be able to enjoy the surf any more - more power to them (pun intended..). Foil drive opens up the potential of spots that proners can’t enjoy.
Completely agree on the lack of etiquette being shown by some users. But then I have seen plenty of kooks on sups and f wits on short boards too for that matter. Needs more education all round.
As above - it’s like the e-scooters on the footpaths, they are here to stay and will only grow in numbers. There’s gonna be some pain along the journey. Promote the etiquette and respect that whatever your stoke is - as long as it isn’t dangerous or disrespectful of others - enjoy.
This…like there were no problems in the surf before…
F-wit FDers have brought a new level of dysfunction and danger for sure, and that sucks, but I think the (otherwise nice) idea of self-regulation is pretty naive, and I’m OK with motor bans in populated/higher traffic areas…that still leaves millions and millions of waves still available for motoring onto
I pretty much stopped mountain biking when Ebikes became super popular. A bunch of wannabe posers motoring around the trails isn’t attractive to me.
Pretty much the biggest problem with many sports and activities these days is the technology is making it too easy. People think just because they can afford some $10k gadget that they can go out and play without putting in the time to learn the basics.
Yep…although a lot of it is just popular trends (and covid) luring more people onto trails and into the backcountry (skiing/backpacking). Social media advertising every last remote and untrammeled place on earth hasn’t helped…as someone who values solitude and simplicity a lot, it’s a bit depressing.
Got to go farther and plan better and be prepared to see more traffic.
My next bike will be a single speed hardtail. Getting a new paddle next week too…
Yeah I feel like this is a west coast problem - both on the e-bikes and the foil drive. On the bikes I feel like for “real” mountain biking with 3k foot climbs and gnarly descents, yeah, the e-bike makes a big difference but for the mellow rolling trails we have back east it’s not as much of a game changer and also it’s all kind of mediocre so why bother with a 5k eMTB. That being said if someone needs the help on our trails I’m not super upset about it.
On the foil the deep and powerful energy on the west coast means you have a sketchy shorebreak scenario giving extra incentive to a device that gets you in early. While the waves are generally “better” (highly debatable for foiling) the geography makes the surfable spots a lot more concentrated that what we have back east, so there is both more incentive for electric and more issues when you do. I’ve talked trash about E assist in the past but honestly if I had to live with deep water energy I’d want any help I could get, but again, here back east I just don’t need it, the wave is conducive to acoustic foiling, but for those that need help the e foil is unlikely to get anyone in hot water since the surf geography is more spread out.
Also, for the record I get it - I’ve been blessed with an inordinate amount of time as well as health and youth to dial in this new sport. If someone wants to pay 3k for some help go for it.
