I think the 135 is going to be the ticket for most people. Personally I was in love with the 140 prog then the 125 and I think I am going to enjoy the 135 for its extra speed but I think the 115 is going to lack the low end. In other words the maintenance to keep the 115 compared to the 135 up might be a bit of a sacrifice. If you are towing then the 115 all day. But at least from what I found going through whitewater or turbulence pumping back out a little more area doesn’t hurt. Just like the progressions or any other model of wings from any other brand you will find that just one does not cover everyday conditions. To find that one wing that does it all also takes Tim e and experience with that wing. I think the 135 is a good starting place. I would always rather have a wing a little bigger than one too small. You can always negative shim the tail on a big wing.
My daily driver is the 140 I’ve been eyeing the 155 and 135 Evo, 88kg surfing knee to head high NorCal waves. I have messed around with shims from 0 to +2 but never negative. Can you share more about the negative shim effects especially when overfoiling? I need to experiment more.
In an airplane, the pitch trim wheel removes pressure from the flight controls so you can maintain level flight without having to push or pull on the controls. If a plane is flying straight and level at 100kts and you increase the throttle, you have to start adding forward trim to prevent it from climbing at 100kts because it’s configured to maintain that speed. It’s an abstract way of thinking about flying, but if the goal is to maintain altitude, pitch trim adjusts the speed that an airplane is flying at. Negative shims are like forward trim and allows the foil to fly faster.
This epiphany made me realize that shims are a way to adjust the speed of your foil. It also makes it more or less pitch sensitive when there’s more or less stabilizing pressure acting on the front wing. But when I ride the 170 with the 14.5 tail, -.5 shim lets the foil fly faster which makes it easier to stay in the window of efficiency.
Thank you that makes perfect sense! I have noticed that with some positive shim I feel slower in the water but with a little more control when compared to zero shim. Does Negative shim also add control or is that feeling just a result of flying slower?
Really cool post, thank you!
I feel shimming is purely a tradeoff of speed versus pitch stability. I still haven’t seen a downside to shimming flatter for speed until we get so badly pitch unstable it is difficult to manage ride height.
So yeah, shimming is exactly a way of adjusting speed. But more that there is pretty much no benefit to riding with excess tail angle besides beginners who can’t manage pitch. Doing so is just simply slow with no other redeeming quality.
I personally think the vast majority of stock setups have too much tail angle out of the box (slow and stable)
Good to consider weight in the equation. Foils have to be designed optimized for a particular weight- logically somewhere near the average rider. If you weigh more or less than that, shimming may be needed to fine tune. Being 95kg, I need to use some combination of sizing up my stab and shim to get myself “there”.
Interesting, thanks for the input.
Two thoughts on this.
- In my understanfdng, balance between foil and stab lift curves is equally important for the range of the setup, meaning that liift and drag vs speed curves should be similar, especially in the topend.
- Regarding the topend, i have some doubt if neg. shim won’t increase locking in/ nose down moment when fully lit, or am i misinterpreting something here?
- Positive shim might be helping you with the turn radius.
Negative will take away some lift but make you go faster. So if you’re a little over foiled on a bigger wing you can go negative to even it out. I personally again like a slightly bigger wing in most occasions but also like the float of a .5 positive shim in surfy conditions.
I guess you know that and are just simplyfing, but there are a lot of people misunderstanding this, so it might be noteworthy to add that lift of the front foil stays the same regardless of stab, fuse or shim, you just change the balance/stability of the angle of attack of the front foil and hence balance between your feet.
Got my evo 135 in and did a couple 15-20kn downwind sends on SUP and prone, and got a thigh to waist surf sesh this morning.
I’m still putting together my thoughts on this, but the gist is–take the progression 140, lose a tiny bit of bottom end, about 50% more top end and glide, roll/pitch in the turn is more like the 125, and less forgiving with bad pump technique. It pumps really well though, especially when high.
If you like the progressions but want more performance, these accomplish that perfectly. 135 can do low end days that the 140 can.
Can you post some side by sides of the 140 and 135?
Kinda hard to get a good shot. Shape is very similar but the foil section is definitely different and thinner.
If you guys have any questions, I’ll answer with my honest thoughts.
Thanks for the feedback Matt.
Sounds then like 135 is closer to the P125 in terms of speed, pumping and turning?
I’m still a bit confused by this release ahead of DW or Mid Aspect wings and how the Evo compliments the Progression line instead of replacing it.
It really does feel like a higher performance Progression foil. And yes, the 135 is closer to the 125 in term of top end and roll sensitivity, but has bottom end closer to the 140, and more glide and hold than the 125. These wings are still very much Florida surf wings and not true DW wings, even though they’re pretty good at it. Think Code S vs R.
As someone who is still learning to pump away from the boat wake in open water and hasn’t even tried prone pop-ups yet, it sounds like the Evo isn’t going to magically make me better, and I’m better off sticking with my P170 for now?
Thanks for the photos, nice to see the differences.
Honestly the progressions are one of the best foils to learn on and progress with IMHO, especially in weaker surf. They’re so predictable and forgiving and still performant.
The evo won’t make it that much harder to learn these techniques, but will force you to dial it in more. My opinion would be to dial in the progression a little more then step up to the evo when you’re wanting more performance.
Some info on the Evolution 135
Caught a couple prone waves on a buddies 155. We switched in the water, I had my p170. It’s similar to the progression 170. I was surprised that the 155 had slightly more early lift than the p170. Pumps well, but needs to be higher on the mast. Does seem slightly smoother and more refined overall than the p170 (which can get temperamental in certain situations). I feel less resistance going through the water with the 155.
Thanks Matt. Sounds like its closer to the 140. How was the 155 turn / carve on the wave compared to 170?
@theliftjournal 6 months later, I am wondering if you have changed your mind on the Evo115. I rode constantly the 155 for the same period then went back to the P125 yesterday.
It was a bit confronting !
How we get use of the reactions of a foil in the turns. The reaction time to approach the face of a wave etc.
Although I must say the P125 turns very well, the balance of foot pressure is very different and it does not have the glide of the Evo. Does it pump as good or is the low end problematic in this case ? I want to evaluate a quiver 155 + 115 would be ideal in my case.