Are stabs like training wheels for bikes?

From what I’ve seen in surf foil and downwing videos, the better the riders, the smaller the stabs.

And that made me wonder, are stabs really just making your setup more pitch stable in the expense of performance? And if so, shouldn’t we all use the smallest stabs we are comfortable riding?
Pitch stability is something that is also trained, so being able to have more stability this way might unlock better performance. I’d love to hear your opinions on this, as someone that’s starting to ride a smaller stab and finding that it’s harder but could be more fun

Yes, in a standard plane a stab provides downforce and a significant amount of drag. The smaller the stab, the more pitch sensitive, but also more lift and less drag everything else staying the same.

Yes pretty much

My thoughts, across all dimensions

Reduce Size = less pitch stabilising force

Reduce Span = less roll stability

Reduce Chord = less pump stall resistance, pitchy

For me the the sweet spot is to reduce span as much as possible without making it too high aspect as that is less fun for surf. Best is to find a nice stab and just downsize it, never a bad outcome.

I played with the Axis skinny stabs and they were all the same span but as you lost chord they got really funky and unpleasant. Nice experiment but not nice stab range other than for going straight

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I agree completely. Reducing span is the main gain.

The other thought is winglets. I don’t like winglets on a stab. When coming up to the top of a wave after a bottom turn, I like to be able to unweight and rotate the foil. Winglets and span play a part in resistance to that.

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Some theories disagree. James Casey for example goes to a smaller front foil and larger stab when towing. He wants the extra drag of a larger stab in the system. So it just depends what you are trying to solve for and the system needs to work together.

I think maybe the larger stab is used to create more drag to prevent a smaller, faster, front foil from out running the wave and help keep you in the pocket.
This could be useful when towing big fast surf.

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The stab angle and length of the fuse are also really important.

A greater stab angle creates more front foot pressure and drag and low end. A flatter stab does the opposite.

Longer fuses increase the leverage the stab has over the front wing leading to more front foot pressure without stab related drag increasing.

A long fuse can give the same pitch stability with smaller stabs than a short fuse.

The fuse shape makes a difference, Code’s chunky fuse probably calms the pitch compared to brands with thinner fuses.

Found it easier to go fast with a longer fuse and a larger, flatter stab compared to setups with a shorter fuse and stock stab angle. I can get used to riding a tiny stab and short fuse, but no way to push it as fast.

Early on in your riding and progression they are like training wheels.

Once you reach the low end of tail sizes it’s not just about finding something smaller. It’s about matching your tail to the experience you want or need on the water that day based on your foil and conditions.

Just like the smallest front foil isn’t always the goal, neither is the smallest tail.

I ride a 113² UHA tail for glide days.
125² Surf tail when it’s good.
157² Surf tail to slow fast foils in swell.
Next purchase is a 115² Surf tail for hero days.

Really interesting topic, I think the training wheels analogy doesn’t really apply as some folks have pointed out since different size stabs are useful for different purposes. That being said, as generic advice if you are going to have the “wrong size” stab (read producing downforce that is not well synchronized to the pitching moment of the foil system to be specific) then it is easier from a rider perspective to to have too much downforce at high speed than too little. More performance can be gleaned from from “too little” as has been pointed out since the front wing needs to produce less lift, the tail wing is producing less drag, low end is slightly improved, turning is slightly improved, but ultimately if you are holding back in your riding as your stability increases when you accelerate to higher speeds your actual experience will surely go down if you push this too far. How far you can push it is of course a matter of skill so in that respect I suppose the analogy does have some merit :slight_smile:

Further complicating the matter though is the angle of attack of a stab has a huge bearing on the downforce created so a sub-question arises being what is “better” a larger stab at a lower angle of attack or smaller stab at higher angle of attack?

Furthermore, stabs have wildly different cross sections which generate significantly more or less downforce at the same speed and angle of attack - so this needs to be taken into account alongside the lift distribution which can make a higher span stab “feel” lower span or vice versa. Aspect ratio also plays a huge role not only in the efficiency of a stab but also how it’s lift responds to changes in speed since it’s angle of attack is “set” by the front wing since it seeks the angle required to produce the necessary lift to keep on foil at speed.

Despite going super deep on stabs it’s very tough to have a cursory glance at another brand’s stab selection and recommend one to another rider, but , fairly easy to suggest a different shim depending on the specific complaint they have on their current setup (or similarly suggest the sizing up/down a stab in the same range).

I’ve found myself preferring a bit larger stab set at a lower angle of attack for my riding which is reflected in our new Agent foils. We also use a very different section than our front wings since the stab does not need to produce a lot of lift at a high angle of attack like the front wing rather is optimized for max efficiency at the narrower range of angles of attack stabs operate in. Along with the larger size we also use quite a bit of aerodynamic and geometric twist across the span which centralizes the lift at cruising speeds making them more “turny” while recruiting more of the span at really high speed to provide downforce and stability. This also has the minor benefit of giving the tail more “positive lift” when the front wing is near stall so provides a touch more low end to the setup.

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Thank you, sounds really interesting. It’s such a shame that Gong V2 stabs are fixed and therefore cannot have their AOA changed, i’d love to try to shim them.

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Also keep in mind that a tail isn’t something to think about on it’s own like you might think about a front wing.
A tail is more of a part of the system and what kind of effect it has on the entire system will change drastically with the rest of the setup.

For example I am very comfortable pumping my 1950 front with with my 50 stab but my 700 front wing would be near impossible and I even had to size all the way up to 130 to have a chance with it.

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yeah, great point Slappy. For sure great cross compatibility is possible between different setups but requires active testing and adjustments to dial in.

Found this comment from Patrice Guenole (Gong boss) on Facebook regarding fuse size. He makes a case for larger stabs for more radical riding and powered foiling. “Instability can feel radical. Stability lets you actually ride radically”. Worth a read in my opinion:

" Above :police_car_light:

If you foil without a wing, you need less stab. Based on your skills and feeling, decrease it as much as you want.

If you foil with a wing, you need a bigger stab.

Why? Because the wing creates pressure on the foil, causing the nose to dive. This pressure increases with speed and with the angle of the foil.

If you ride a smaller stab with a wing, it feels like it works. But… Actually, you are producing the opposite of what you want. You are just creating instability.

The longitudinal stability, nose up/down, becomes really hard to handle. It gives you the feeling of being lively and radical.

At the same time, the rail-to-rail is not getting freer. It depends mostly on the span of the front wing.

So you lock the turning ability and you unlock the straight-line stability.

The positive point that makes people think it is better in turns to have a smaller stab is that the nose up/down instability is also a way to free the turning radius when you have a big mast angle in the water.

But… because this angle is unstable, you can’t push as much as you want without making a mistake.

As we say, you have the illusion of shredding when you are actually riding “on eggs”.

For example, the best strapless surf foil setup for Malo is:

FW Fluid XS
Stab Veloce DW L
0° angle.

In addition:

The key point is to separate pitch stability from roll freedom. A foil does not only need to turn. It also needs to remain balanced longitudinally around its pitch axis. The front wing produces lift, but it also produces a pitching moment. Depending on the profile, angle of attack, speed, and position of the centre of pressure, this moment tends to rotate the foil around the pitch axis. The stab exists largely to balance this moment and to create longitudinal stability.
In simplified terms, the pitching equilibrium of the foil can be written as:
M front wing + M stab + M rig + M rider = 0

The stab contributes through both its aerodynamic force and its lever arm behind the front wing:
M stab = F stab × lever arm

This is extremely important because a relatively small force at the stab can generate a large stabilising moment due to this lever arm.
The force generated by any foil surface is approximately:
F = 1/2 × rho × V² × S × Cl

So the loads increase with the square of the speed. This means that when speed increases, the pitching moments increase very quickly too.

Without a wing or kite, the system is relatively simple. The rider, board and foil are mostly interacting with each other, without a large external pulling force acting high above the foil.

In this case, you can reduce the stab much more. This is why a small or low-lift stab can feel so natural in downwind. When you accelerate down a bump, a large stab creates more force as speed increases. If this force produces too much nose-up moment, the board wants to climb. You then have to push harder on the front foot, control the pitch, and sometimes pump to keep the foil moving along the right trajectory. With a low-lift stab such as an Hypertrail, the foil is allowed to keep moving forward with much less correction. The glide feels more natural because acceleration is not immediately transformed into excessive nose-up movement.

With a wing or a lowkite, the mechanical situation changes completely. The rig creates an external force. This force acts through the rider and is applied far above the foil. Because of this distance, even a moderate pulling force creates a significant pitching moment:
M rig = F rig × lever arm

The vertical distance between the foil and the point where the rig force is transmitted through the rider is very large compared with the dimensions of the foil itself. So the rig has a very strong influence on pitch balance. As the rig loads up, and especially as speed increases, this additional pitching moment has to be balanced by the foil system. This is why a bigger or more effective stab can become necessary. The mistake is to think that reducing stab size automatically makes the foil more radical.
What it mainly does is reduce pitch stability. A smaller stab generates less restoring moment when the foil changes angle. So a small change in front-foot or back-foot pressure creates a larger change in pitch. This feels immediately lively. The foil seems freer and more reactive. But a large part of this sensation is simply reduced longitudinal stability.

At the same time, reducing stab size does not free the rail-to-rail behaviour in the same proportion. Roll behaviour depends much more on the span of the front wing. A wide front wing has its lifting surfaces far away from the roll axis. These outer sections create strong hydrodynamic moments because of their large lever arm.
In simplified form:
M roll = F × distance from the roll axis

The greater the span, the greater this lever arm. This is why a large-span front wing naturally resists roll more than a compact front wing. So if you keep a large-span front wing and simply reduce the stab, you mostly free the pitch axis. You do not free the roll axis nearly as much. The result is a foil that feels unstable longitudinally without necessarily becoming much freer rail-to-rail.
This is exactly why a small stab can create the illusion of greater manoeuvrability.

There is, however, one real effect that explains why riders often feel that a smaller stab helps to tighten turns. When the foil is strongly banked, with a large mast angle in the water, pitch movement also contributes to the three-dimensional curvature of the foil’s trajectory. If pitch is very free, the rider can change the front wing angle very quickly. This can help tighten the turn radius. So the sensation is real. But the problem is that the pitch angle is less stable. The rider can create a very sharp movement, but cannot necessarily load that movement as hard or as precisely.

The foil becomes easier to disturb.

So there is a major difference between a foil that reacts quickly because it is unstable and a foil that can be pushed very hard while remaining controlled. This is why more pitch stability can actually allow more radical riding. The Malo example shows this very clearly. The Fluid XS is very compact and has a small span. This already gives him a lot of roll freedom and rail-to-rail ability. There is therefore no need to create extra pitch instability to make the foil feel radical. The larger Veloce DW stab gives him enough longitudinal stability to push extremely hard without losing control of the pitch axis. So the front wing gives him freedom in roll, while the stab gives him stability in pitch. That combination allows him to push harder, hold more pressure, and keep the foil exactly on the intended trajectory.

This is the important distinction:

Instability can feel radical. Stability lets you actually ride radically."

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