The only thing holding me back from moving to tuttle is the availability of surfy wings. I guess F4 changes that with the Manta…
I’ve ridden Mikeslab masts quite a bit and the setup is just so clean and feels super direct.
Boards aren’t really a problem, there’s no shortage of custom shapers out there that will make you a tuttle board - and their price tags are often a lot less than modern production boards
Adjustability also isn’t really a problem… I don’t know why people move their mast so much.
Having listened to the podcast with Ken, is it really as simple as “chopping” the plate off existing masts? Obviously not optimised like a true Tuttle mast and you lose some length but that instantly opens up all the current surf (and the rest) foils.
For what little it’s worth I’ve raised the Tuttle discussion in the code foils chat group and James has said there’s a bunch of things in testing (whether this is masts/products in general or specifically something with an option other than a mast plate I don’t know
Just look at the surfboard industry, first glasses on fins then the US box. But lighter and less drag was needed so FCS came along, and Futures, and now FCS 2. So from one fin system we now have 3, probably more on the way.
The chances are the major manufacturers have their own ideas, Cabrinha tried it with their ball chicken loop system, never caught on and the standard is still the old hook and loop.
If wake, pump and assist won’t change, that’s probably over half the market. Will need to be a brave foil manufacturer to go it alone.
Kinda no, but also kinda yes. That was sort of a joke to expect people to do it, but also totally do-able
If you have enough extra length, and the carbon fibres align, and no weird hollow spots, you can do it. You have to be handy, a bit precise, and just willing to do it
Chop. Align and stick into a 2-part mold (mine is just 3D printed) filled with epoxy + chopped fibres. Let cure & release mold. Measure & drill holes. Push in barrel nuts. Yay.
With the right supplies it’s about 30mins of work + cure time.
I cut down a plate mast and put up a few pictures of my setup in another thread. I’m pulling together a much better post on exactly how to do it. It’s not a job as simple as chopping the tips off a foil obviously, but for any do-it-yourselfer that is reasonably handy the conversion project is totally in reach. I must say, doing in 30mins of work seems like quite a stretch though
I have seen this 30 minute estimate multiple times now.
Can anybody find a video just showing how this is done?
Why does the Tuttle head have to be carbon?
If the uni-directional carbon fibers are running north-south on a properly designed mast then the Tuttle head is just serving to lock into the Tuttle base. The majority (actually all) of stresses should be compressive at this point. No need for fancy, expensive layups or even chopped carbon. Just a dense, solid matrix with no voids.
Remember the Tuttle started in the windsurfing industry. The fins were first fiberglass, then G10 and eventually carbon. Carbon is nice but may not be the best material for filling a molded head. The ideal material should have to good Non-Compressive properties. Think steel reinforced concrete.
30mins might be ambitious, but it’s not far off. I’ll film next time I do one.
Definitely doesn’t need to be potted with carbon. I’ve even done a bunch of kite race fins with plastic. Any chopped fibre is good, mostly just so you don’t just have solid epoxy, which is brittle.
But you do need enough carbon strands leftover in the right orientation from your starting mast so your bolts are into some good meat
I will add that I used Tuttle bases nearly exclusively for the 1st 5 seasons of foiling (2017 until ~ 2021). I would install Tuttles into new boards with tracks. I have experienced all sorts of box failures from Tuttles, and Tracks melting down in as few as 5 sessions because “PROFESSIONAL” BOARD BUILDERS didn’t understand the stresses involved with Foil masts and plates.
Mavericks is my home break I am constantly exposed to big, unreasonable surf. I had my first board ripped open when hit by 10 feet of white water. None of you may have experienced the joy of getting hit, coming up with NO foil attached to the board, but then looking 50 yards away and seeing your foil floating in the whitewater. Bumbles bounce and GoFoil Kai’s float!
I went on to reinforce, or install from scratch more than a dozen Tuttles and Track Boxes. I’ve been hit and rolled by big waves at Mavericks, Middle Peak (Steamer Lane - Cracked my Tuttle box), Sunset Point, Phantoms North Shore Hawaii (4 consecutive waves Tuttle did not break), and Black Hand Reef (Inside of Mavericks below) among others.
I would not, and do not trust, a Track system to hold up from being hit by a big wave, say 8 feet or more of whitewater. There is just too much leverage on the mast. That being said the Tuttles held up pretty well, and I trusted them MORE not to fail.
The same robustness, that keeps a Tuttle from failing is what:
Adds to the Tuttles stiffness and
Emphasizes the Tuttle’s structural integrity which is largely a carbon box structure that extends from Bottom Deck to Top deck of the board.
Here Tuttle holding up after repeated beatings - Bending Axis Aluminum mast. Note: I tried to salvage the Aluminum mast by Un-Bending it. There was so much force applied, to my vise and bench, I thought something was going to explode and break and I stopped. The bent mast did not budge and I tossed it away.
There’s every chance I’m underestimating the complexity of this but to my understanding from the foil manufacturing companies it just requires adding one more mast to the lineup (which by all reports is a simpler and cheaper design) all existing wings, fuses and stabs in that lineup wouldn’t require any change and would be instantly compatible.
So far some of these companies will seemingly throw any idea at the wall and see if it sticks often targeted to even smaller segments of the userbase (integrated masts, titanium fuses, ever changing UHA foils) whats the harm in throwing one more mast into the product line it doesn’t have to be a cut and dry one or the other?
Once the mast is available (hopefully using a “standardised adjustable tuttle design”) the board side of things is simple (again trench boards weren’t an issue which are only used by a small segment of the riders so a tuttle board option shouldn’t be a stretch)
Using F4’s rise in popularity there’s obviously a market out there for efficiency and it seems an option of removing the plate from the picture could potentially open up a lot of gains rather than chasing the more and more exotic and expensive materials path with diminishing returns.
Yes, quite easy for manufacturers but it’s the retailers that suffer, having to stock double the number of masts to suit both systems. Just like the days of Moses/Sabfoil before the two piece mast was released, they had a vast array of masts on offer to suit both systems.
Again I’m not sure I see this as a major roadblock. Most stores are keeping low stock of items these days and ordering based on demand.
Also lets say the tuttle mast comes in at $1500-$2000. That can’t be more suffering than stocking a different $3.5k integrated mast for each brand, then add different pod height options. Throw in trench boards of varying sizes and shapes of cutouts, which are getting outdated as soon as they drop. All of these items also can’t be used by a large chunk of the foiling community.
My argument isn’t against these things above but I don’t subscribe to the “It’s too hard or risky” if these other things got through without batting an eyelid.
This would hopefully be a standardised connection which could make foiling substantially better for the majority of unassisted users.
The drag isn’t that big of an issue towing or wake foiling. So, make the tuttle plate that can be use on the track boards, and pulled off to use on tuttle boards.
Whilst I agree the average FD owner is tripping over themselves to hand over money in the hope of making things even easier, I’d argue no-one who foils is poverty stricken and if you bring a quality and different product that actually advances things (and doesn’t just get tagged with the stupid G word) to the market people will buy them.
Locally you have to join a waiting list to get your hands on a parawing (and all the related items that go with it), mid aspect surf foils are also back ordered.
I could go off on a tangent on how I think the industry as a whole has priced itself out of a lot of potential growth (foiling is hard enough to learn as it is, having to spend the price of a small car on a setup that is quickly outdated would be a hard pill to swallow for those that haven’t already experienced how magic it can be)
Margins aren’t that thin…
But again is a $1500-$2000 mast with very notable improvements really that big of a risk? If it was just another new front wing I don’t think people would be thinking twice at the investment.
On one of the progression session zoom calls I asked about tuttle masts (probably 2 actually) but Cliffy described how to make foil tracks as stiff as a tuttle. The main problem is surfboard glassers glassing foil boards. We should never have issues with track boxes failing. That is absurd to me that it still happens so frequently.
The hollow boards may have fixed that. Best of both worlds? Adjustability and the industry standard using tracks with the stiffness of tuttle?
To make a change some of the major board manufacturers need to offer the alternative to tracks, whatever that may be. Small players like Appletree aren’t enough to push a change, you need Duotone, Naish, Slingshot, North, Sunova etc onboard too.
Maybe top foilers at the M2O could show the worth of the change, lots of prototype equipment there.
If one of these new adjustable systems proves itself in testing, brands will sign up. Despite all the inconveniences. Why? Because foiling is a performance driven sport. And the mast / plate has become the weakest link. It didn’t happen before because (a part from some niche race oriented applications) no one was going to settle for a non adjustable version.
Kalshi taking bets on % of top 10 in the triple crown who are using Tuttle this year. Trying to improve my edge. Edo, F4 riders (who?), @KDW hard maybe? who else?
