Back to Tuttle – Back to Performance

There’s been increasing discussion about the performance gains of a Tuttle connection vs. a track plate system for foiling.

In the beginning, 10 seasons ago, all there was were Tuttle Boxes compatible with GoFoil, then Naish…. I begrudgingly moved to the Tracks 5 years ago BUT:

Given Recent commentary from Ken Adgate, Kyle Touhey, and Edo Tanas among others, it’s worth laying out the case clearly.

The Performance Benefits

1) Increased Stiffness

With a Tuttle system, fibers run vertically through the head and into a high-density, carbon-wrapped cassette structure. Loads are transferred deck-to-deck, not just into a shallow skin laminate around tracks.

  • Vertical compression is better supported.

  • Lateral torsional loads are better contained.

  • The connection becomes structural, not just bolted-on hardware.

As Ken put it, we’re spending enormous money on ultra-stiff carbon masts — then bolting them to what is effectively a soft interface. That interface becomes the weakest link.

2) Lower Profile = Lower Drag

The large base plate is eliminated.

The mast head mates directly to the board’s bottom surface. That means:

  • Less paddle drag during takeoff

  • Cleaner water flow at low speeds

  • Lower overall stack height

It’s subtle — but high-performance riding is built on subtle differences.

3) Lower Weight

As Kane DeWilde noted:

“The heaviest part of the entire foil is that carbon fiber baseplate.”

Eliminating the plate can reduce total system weight by approximately 1–1.5 lbs. On high-performance boards where grams matter, that’s significant.

4) Increased Strength / Reduced Failure Risk

Similar to stiffness — but worth stating separately.

With a proper Tuttle cassette:

  • Compression loads are distributed vertically.

  • Tension loads are transmitted deeper into the structure.

  • There’s less localized crushing around track inserts.

Given how many track boxes fail under cyclic pumping loads, this is significant.

5) Lower Long-Term System Cost

Once standardized:

  • No need for heavy plate systems.

  • Mast and board integration becomes cleaner.

  • Less complicated track hardware.


The Downsides

A) Reduced Adjustability

Track systems offer near-infinite fore/aft adjustment.

Tuttle is fixed — though adjustable Tuttles with ±1” movement and rake shims are now emerging.

B) Compatibility & Industry Momentum

  • Only a few brands currently offer Tuttle mast bases.

  • Most board builders are fully committed to track construction.

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Ken Agate and Kyle Touhey were blunt:

“You spend all this effort stiffening the mast… and then bolt it to a marshmallow.”

They describe plate systems as the weak link in an otherwise high-performance chain.

Generic Foiling Podcast 138 - Ken Adgate and Kyle Touhey

https://genericfoilingpod.com/archives/podcast/138-ken-adgate-kyle-touhey-who-doesnt-want-to-own-a-ken-adgate-board-it-seems-one-of-the-big-brands-were-asking-the-same-question

[56:14] I also know that a lot of brands don’t like it (The TRACK SYSTEM) um it’s hard to build boards for it it’s

[56:19] hard it’s expensive and difficult to build masts for it and it’s this really weird idea that you’ll

[56:25] spend i don’t know like what’s the expensive Axis Mast like $17,000 or something like that for this

[56:32] this this crazy stiff carbon you know exotic material mast that then you bolt to some marshmallow

[56:42] and then stand between you and it so it’s it’s you’re just you know you’re spending all this

[56:47] effort on on stiffening up the mast and the connection is just so poor and then every you

[56:52] know between you know the top of the mast and your feet is just you know it’s not great on a

[57:00] track system and it’s difficult to build it adds weight you go to a Tuttle as soon as you try it

[57:05] like we gotta get you on one it’s it’s insane how much stiffer it is and yes there it’s

[57:13] definitely more low drag to get going um that’s a nice thing too i mean i some people say they

[57:20] really notice it um i don’t spend enough time on plate masts to really kind of comment on that but

[57:26] to me the difference in stiffness is i find plate masts unrideable i haven’t i haven’t yet

[57:31] found a board that i would consider stiff enough

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Edo Tanas echoed this sentiment after riding a 62L Tuttle board:

“It’s so stiff… you get a much higher performance out of the entire setup.”

He believes it represents a future direction — though one that will take time for riders to adopt.

Generic Foiling Podcast 139 - Edo Tanas Joins Slingshot

https://genericfoilingpod.com/archives/podcast/139-edo-tanas-joins-slingshot

[1:01:34] And then recent, recent news.

[1:01:36] It was only this week just gone, we put out a chat with Ken and Kyle.

[1:01:41] And I’m, you know, more than assuming you’re familiar

[1:01:44] with the introduction of their Tuttle board and associated mast.

[1:01:49] Have you got to play on that yet?

[1:01:51] Is that something you’ve used in the past?

[1:01:53] Like, is that yeah, what’s your take on that?

[1:01:58] I think it’s super cool.

[1:02:00] And actually, they I got this 62 liter wing board.

[1:02:06] I think it was one of Ken’s boards that he designed and

[1:02:10] somehow happened to land in my in my hands and it’s got that that Tuttle.

[1:02:16] And I I’ve been using it even for prone foiling, even though it is 62 liters.

[1:02:20] I’m just like**, this thing is so good.**

[1:02:23] It’s so stiff and you can just have a much higher performance

[1:02:29] out of the entire setup with that connection.

[1:02:32] So I really think it is it is where the future is going to go to.

[1:02:39] That’s like it’s definitely a pivoting

[1:02:44] a pivoting thing that it’s going to take a little while for people

[1:02:47] to adapt and be open to because it is a different setup.

[1:02:51] But the benefits from it that you get

[1:02:56] it is huge when you’re actually riding it.

Given the performance benefits — stiffness, lower drag, lower weight, improved structural integration — will (or when will) the industry begin offering Tuttle as the high-performance option for foiling masts and boards?

Is track simply the “standard,” or is it the compromise?

For riders chasing ultimate efficiency and connection, the difference in stiffness alone may be enough to reconsider. (Although I would pursue the Increased Strength and Lower Overall Weight advantage.)

PS: This is not meant to distract from Jon Drums excellent post on building an adjustable Tuttle, but to augment and get the discussion going on (possible) Tuttle transition.

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Coming from windfoil race gear, and then wingfoil race gear, I am very tuttle positive.

Especially for how light and stiff you can make the board to foil connection.

Have been on the F4 AX 75 plate mast since that came. Placed an order on a F4 board with tuttle box and a 82cm mast today, and looking forward to be back on tuttle​:blush:

Tuttle mast also fits better inside the board bag, on top of the board when traveling.

The adjustability of the tracks is not really something I feel I need. I haven’t moved my plate mast one mm since I got it. And Ive tried all the Orca sizes with 120xs and 170xs.

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I would agree with the drawbacks of the plate but don’t agree with Tuttle being the solution.

adjustability is way too important and in my opinion and experience the lack of adjustability can easily lead to a large loss in performance vs the gain in weight and stiffness.

The lack of adjustment is fine if you ride a board custom designed for one specific front wing, mast, fuse, rear wing, and strap setup but change any one of those and you can lose performance when on foil compared to a track (the takeoff benefit is undeniable).

I believe we can make something better instead of defaulting to a compromised standard.

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With tuttlebox.com 3” adjustment and all angles adjustment there is absolutely no debate to be had anymore. I’ve tested the box, it’s great. Before I would say “tuttle is superior in every way except adjustability,” now I don’t have to say that anymore. It’s simply superior. Didn’t bother having that convo with anyone who didn’t bring it up themselves though - nobody likes to hear their gear sucks.

It’s pretty funny to see how people seem to be catching onto this only in the past few months, when every mikeslab rider has known this since winging started. Maybe the foils and masts have gotten good enough that the plate drag and flex is too much to ignore these days? Maybe it’s that axis sells a mast that is 80% of the price of a complete mikeslab setup then you “bolt it to a marshmallow” as Kyle says in the podcast.

I’d love to test slingshot’s new tuttle mast and not have to chop the heads off of masts anymore.

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You bring that subject back just as I sold my last GoFoil tuttle mast, thinking I wouldn’t see any compatible board ever in my lifetime…

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I’m Kyle here btw.

I’m definitely open to any other possible solutions.

But creating that solution isn’t yet in my wheelhouse. as far as working with what we’ve got today, it’s Tuttle over tracks for me. and yeah you’re right, I do have the luxury of building boards for the foils I want, so admittedly that may skew things. but I also get some opportunities to try lots of others and it often works out pretty well.

FYI. A few sizes of atlas and nomad we’ve tried work great within the range of our boxes. Not necessarily a proof point, but it’s nice.

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Does the Appletree/Core Proto of the RADIX system solve any of these issues?

Wouldn’t a standardised mast, fuse, front wing and stab interface between all brands be a lovely thing! :crossed_fingers:

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Big tuttle making that hard push!

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I’m very keen to try the radix!

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If code and a solid board brand bring this to market, I’m jumping ship. Just hoping it actually makes it into production and becomes the industry standard.

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As a code and appletree rider I’m also keeping a close eye on this combo.

Personally I feel an ultra efficient and thin mast is the only real “weakness” in codes lineup atm (I ride a 80 UHM mast) whilst I’m not keen to change out boards and mast it sounds like there’s some potential performance gains up for grabs here.

Code doesnt have anything to do with it. It’s CORE KITEBOARDING - a foil brand that nobody gives a s*** about.

I feel like Cedrus and Appletree should run with this and just not mention Core also using it.

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Appletree builds boards for Core which would help explain this being the initial proto (much like they do for Omen)

I hope “code” is looking into jumping in on this or something similar

I’m also ready to jump on the bandwagon. It all make sense. Radix, adjustabe tuttle or the next thing, I just hope that the next advancement will be friendly for the backyard builder like me.

For now the Jondrum adjustelable tuttle set the bar for a shared workflow. Lets see what’s next!

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Nothing new i guess :saluting_face:

Clement Colmas in 2024

And I think he did quite some races on a Tuttle mast system

Thanks for starting this thread Beasho!

I have now made adjustable tuttle boxes in two flavors, 5” and 3” adjustment. The 5” adjustment has as much adjustability as the longest track setups. Both boxes can be shimmed to any location in ~1/2” increments, which is plenty of resolution. I haven’t made any mast rake angle shims, but it could easily be done.

Converting a mast to tuttle is very doable if you’re handy. It’ll take 6-8cm off the length, so start with an 80 or 85 if you can.

One of these days, I’ll post up more build pictures for anyone who wants to make their own. I have some photos of the very first one I built up on this forum. But I have made some improvements since then. The tooling is in the hundreds of dollars and even cheaper if you are handy with a 3D printer. send me a dm if you are seriously considering making one and I’ll send you what I have.

Having personally done back-to-back testing with tuttle and plate masts I can say that all the claims Beasho makes are true.

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Adjustable Tuttle for sale here $139.

Weights of Various track & base systems:

  • 16” Tracks 26.2 oz - 743 grams
  • 11” Tracks 18.3 oz - 518 grams
  • Tuttle Adjustable 17.1 oz - 499 grams
  • Tuttle Original 11.6 oz - 330 grams

Anybody that says “weight doesn’t matter” probably hasn’t ridden an ultra-light board.

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