It’s been said that EPS boards lose their stiffness quickly as compared to closed-cell foam boards. That there are tradeoffs, such as weight, is acknowledged, but what does it matter if your light weight board is a noodle? Please, take this in any direction you like. I’m mostly interested in whether this is true, generally? If not generally true, what different about the more durable, stiff EPS boards? Finally, are there brands of boards that have an especially good record as far as quality (i.e. durability) goes?
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Too much epoxy has a faq about this by now I’m pretty sure. He should just do a mediocre foiling podcast episode about it and link that so he doesn’t have to keep re-typing it
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For winging I don’t think you would feel the effects of a soft board very much (maybe jumping would be different) Because you have wind power and you are hanging on to the wing you are probably lighter on your feet and pushing with less downward force into the foil box.
Prone is where it is really noticeable. As the box starts to soften you will lose the direct connection to your foil when driving the foil down on the pump. Each pump will start to compress the foam very minimally at first but cumulatively over time it will crush it. As the foam starts to get smooshed the carbon/fiberglass connection to the box will start to allow
water in. Eps is really thirsty so your board will gain considerable weight.
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I think the opposite. The bigger heavier board limits the kind of energy you can put in the foil. Also, there’s a lot of inherent stiffness that comes with the increased thickness.
Finally, more of the wing and DW boards are connected to the formerly windsurfing part of the industry so I suspect they are better at building to manage loads than the surf part of the industry(but really this is just conjecture)
Good question. I suppose it could be any of those. It’s relative, like comparing how it feels now to how it felt brand new. I definitely know when a surfboard gets noodley, the performance, the liveliness, the flex pattern all change. Typically it’s the result of a broken stringer(s) or the glass delaminates or the foam’s water logged. I’d like to know whether EPS is more susceptible to “noodling” than closed-cell foam? If so, can this be mitigated in how it’s constructed? At what cost to weight, cost, etc? Apparently, a post like this already exists. If so, could someone point me to it? Thx
Your observation that the board manufacturer’s roots, whether in windsurfing or surf, determines the durability of the boards they make is definitely worth thinking about.
Yep, that’s pretty much what I was thinking. Is it a case of having to choose between weight and durability? EPS boards are lighter than boards made with closed-cell foam, and, therefore, don’t expect them to last as long.
Haha, I’ll be happy to listen to a mediocre podcast, so long as it answers my question(s). Can you point me to the post about this? Thx
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I was kind of joking. @toomuchepoxy has a podcast named “mediocre foiling podcast” which I find amusing. He also has posted a lot about how to tell when your tracks are failing. Here is a thread where he rebuilds some boards.
There is discussion on board flex in this thread. With this being my favorite line in the whole thread. “You think its good vibes holding your weight above the water?”
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Are we talking prone boards or wing? For wing i think flex is less of an issue because of the thickness of the board, less pumping involved, heavier board = slower energy input, thicker more durable sandwich skin is better, and just if there is flex its noticed less just in the nature of the sport. I can’t really speak to wing boards other than that i like the appletree construction - it matches how i build my prone boards and combats the #1 killer of wing boards - water intrusion from small dings. I also like that its a more repairable product - i’d say its infinitely repairable. My fanatic seems fine for stiffness but is covered in small dings (that are hard to fix with that sandwich construction) and the paint looks like crap and god i hate it and i wish i had an appletree a year and a half in.
For prone stiffness is vital. Things happen much faster and the only energy input is your feet so responsiveness is everything. Its also harder to build a stiff prone board in EPS. Portal is making a great, stiff, long lasting EPS board. Other than that i’ve never laid eyes on a good production prone board (in the flesh). Again, i like to think the appletrees are good because i like that foam and if soemthing does go wrong i’m sure i can fix it (but i’ve never handled one in person)
I also feel like connection fit is an area for improvement. For both board and connection stiffness you just need to get familar with being more agressive in handling the board and foil on the beach. Lean on it, put energy into it, flex the foil, see where it moves, flex the board using the mast, see how it moves. You get a feel for these things and then if somethings not right you feel it and address it (maybe tighten something) and then you feel your friends rigs and maybe its better and you get another data point on what a stiff rig feels like. Once you can feel these things you want a rig thats PERFECT. If there’s even a whisper of connection movement or board flex i feel it in my hands on the beach. Currently i’ve got a little bit of mast flex (NL v1) but my connections, fuse, and board have 0 movement flexing them on the beach (which i’m proud of). I’ve done more formal measurements (but its hard).
The other thing i want to do with these posts is get manufacturers to make better boards and foils. 5 years ago i was complaining in whatever forums i could about mast stiffness and how important it was for prone foiling(- building custom rigs on Axis 19mm masts and old 19mm liquid force masts -) and it took years of bitching to get all the brands on board and now the inustry is FINALLY giving me a mast that works. I want that same level of performance in board stiffness and connection stiffness.
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I didn’t think it mattered a whole lot what discipline we were talking about when it came to durability, not until I read your post, at least. Thinking about how each foiling discipline contends with unique forces and that different equipment is needed to meet these demands has provided a big boost to my understanding of equipment overall.
As for my background, where I live on The Big Island, I expect I’ll be in the surf zone mostly, and eventually I’ll down wind residual wind swell with either light or no true wind. Therefore, winging is out, unfortunately. All of this will be with the assistance of Foil Drive.
I’ll cut to the chase, I am interested in the durability of the Amos Kruzer as it’s the board I’ll be riding. Amos has a reputation for making solid boards, as far as I’ve heard. I find what’s being said about increased board length together with less volume really shining in the surf to be compelling. However, I am wondering how a longer, thinner board made from EPS will contend with the forces found in surf conditions. Will it hold up over time? While I had a specific board in mind, what I’ve learned is helping me understand board construction more generally.
I want to add that I had a good laugh when you described, “being more aggressive in handling the board and foil on the beach.” If you only knew how OCD I can be with my toys, especially shiny, new ones, you’d laugh too. Nonetheless, I take your point and though it may mean years of therapy, I’ll try to be more aggressive flexing my gear on the beach. Now that’s a sentence I never imagined writing, hehe.
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Foildrive specific boards are going to get thinner but with a bit of length, just no need for volume when you have a Gen 2 attached as your not trying to paddle for a wave on a prone board.
These thin boards will provide better connection between your rear foot and the foil plate, no need for thickness there as it just reduces the feel of the board.
But this will be a dilemma for the manufacturers, maintaining the rocker line of a thin EPS blank while laminating will be difficult unless you revert to using stringers or jigs. Maybe with the decrease in volume they look at urethane blanks as the weight difference of a thin EPS blank over a urethane blank is less of a concern.
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