I got a bunch of trick tips aimed at prone foiling. I hope this helps some people out.
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Ok I think I understand now, the point I was making is that for people that canāt turn or pump, they are too far forward, youāre past that, so not relevant. Obviously there is a limit to how far back, and youāre likely on it.
Youāve found the sweet spot where you can turn, pump without moving your feet, even better itās also tuned to where your mast is on the board so not adjustment when you popup.
Interestingly, the difference of opinion, is that because your waves are so weak, you NEVER need to move your feet. Once your feet are in the right place, you donāt need to at all as the waves donāt really push you much more than the speed you pump at, so the pump stance and turn stance donāt need to be that different.
My local spots are usually 10-12s typically and a very popular surf spot, so they have way more energy, but are also closeouts, so you need to move your feet a lot when you get a full speed wave, compared to pumping through turblent water.
(Iām still amazed that you like having those tiny foot pads)
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Iād like to hear Mike and Ericās nuggets of wisdom as they are usually very insightful on this type of shit, and break it down nicely. These above are from myself and the crew who are all competent foilers, but not rippers by any measure
Yeah 12 sec west coast is like a different sport compared to 6 sec east coast. Any time I travel someplace and the period is longer than 10 I honestly donāt even bother. I feel like Iām so over baked on wave Iām scrubbing speed the whole time just trying to survive then I kick over the shoulder and immediately feel like Iām fighting for my life cause the backs somehow have more negative power and the wave was going so fast I have to pump 3 times as far for every second I spent on that wave(where I wasnāt even doing any turns or anything Cause it was too damn fast). 2.5 at 6 is like a dream itās so slow you just play on it, throw some hacks or whatever in the white Water then kick out and loop around like itās Nothing. Type of energy is EVERYTHING.
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Yes, itās like a pump track where everything is a feature, compare with surf waves where the link turn is the only real turn and everything else is trying to burn speed
I donāt think foils are that useful in the upper range because the smaller foils canāt scrub speed as effectively.
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Interesting threadā¦ Iām typically riding the biggest wing I can control for power and turning vs. the smallest I can pump meaning I want a small foil for wave riding, and a large foil for pumping up to the point that there is drag. For my conditions, Matt is correct in that moving your front foot back is critical in establishing your base glide point. The smaller the front foil, the more you need to adjust your front foot as the lifting sweet spot becomes very small. Iām West coast and am amazed how many of you can ride tiny windswell. Our spots just donāt work until there is size and power. The very few times Iāve tried a big foil I would agree that once youāve made the drop, the sweet spot is much bigger and you can get away with moving your back foot forward to pump, which is the opposite to riding larger surf where when you ride down the back side of a wave you shift your front foot back to level the board before pumpingā¦ so different strokes for different folks!
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Adding this video where Adam doesnāt need to adjust for dropping in as heās towed, notice his front foot moves but almost imperceptively see 5.6 for what I was talking about. He does occasionally pick up his back foot, so much that he even gets his leash 4.35 stepped on!
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Adam Bennetts is a great example of someone who finds the proper positioning of a setup on a board and his foot positioning on a board.
He prone foils long period swell regularly. You rarely see him move his feet in small wave short period or big wave long period.
I try to get my setup to where my feet arenāt moving and I can paddle and pop up to the right position. There is times thag my back foot comes slightly forward to pump, but not otherwise.
Doesnāt matter if I am towing or prone foiling. When the setup is correct, you should have as equal pressure as possible and be shifting weight, not your feet.
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Here is an example of someone taking off too far forward, no doubt they can feel they are too far forward because they are a sponsored / competitive rider, and they SHIFT BOTH THEIR FEET, multiple times, finding the groove.
Could he have done that critical top turn hack if he didnāt move his feet? Zero chance. Maybe unfamiliar un-dialled foil, but whatever the point is that he needed to find the sweet spot. So for turns, find the sweet spot.
But wait, literally the next clip, Zane pumping out to the back in a pump stance, and then shifting them both back when he starts getting onto the wave. He moves his front foot like 4 times. And those are the visible movements from 500m away. Most of the time these are imperceptible shuffles and twists to shift it a centimetre or two. Why had he moved his feet before the pump? Why did he need to move them again after the pump? Because he had a long ass pump out the back on a high performance foil, and it was easier with a different weight balanceā¦
Then the Axis rider, he moves his feet before the off the lip and after. Why?
So, for prone, move your feet, find the groove, find the push. I rest.
I wonder if I should change any of these now that Iāve turned this into a grand theory
Yes, this is a good point, Iāve based all of this on riding these types of conditions, and the smaller the foil the less it will tolerate your feet being wrong. The way to truly feel this is to SUP downwind on a race foil where there is no chance of pumping if you are too far forward, but when you paddle up your feet work their way forward, and so you quickly discover the principle of good trim.
Onto Adam:
yes that is what Iām talking about. @Kurtis is right he almost never moves his feet because he is so perfectly dialled, but Iāll also say that it often looks like Adams pumping is super laboured because he is favouring the surf stanceā¦ so not exactly a good example for the rest of us, but that shuffle is the type of adjustment Iām talking about.
Anyway, looking at Adam for example of people doing it wrong is not that useful as obviously he is perfectly dialled in the edited clips.
This agrees with the point Iām making, for towing, you donāt need to pump much, youāre riding small foils at high speed, and so the balanced surf stance at high speed is enough to pump the foil, and if youāre towing you donāt bother killing yourself to link another wave, which is the same as all Adams clips.
For most people, their setup isnāt correct, and their stance isnāt equal, especially when theyāre proning, and their pressure isnāt equal. Example, Liam from GFP when foil driving dented his board under his back foot from pressing so hard to keep the nose up.. dented! too far forward.
My point isnāt that struggling intermediates are standing too far forward, and they should work their way back.
Interestingly, this below shows how far back Adam is, when he gets hung up in the lip, he needs to drop knee to keep from breaching. Most people would not stand in such a precariously trimmed stance, but to get the most out of it, you must. Similar to how most advanced surfers canāt even ride a pro level board because itās too unforgiving
I think the foot shuffle is more relevant for micro boards(which I donāt bother with). That board is a 4ā10ā and I ride the mast pretty far forward. I think a lot of people (pros included) got tricked into riding micro boards and really weird shapes by stiffness issues. Old board goes soft - Doesnt pump right - new smaller board feels AMAZEBALLS on the pump - must be this hot new shape - 6 months later that board is soft - repeat forever to get micro boards and crazy shapes that donāt do anything.
Maybe Iām just the only person on the planet whose board is stiff enough. Board is solid Divinycell with internal carbon reinforcement. If your gear isnāt stiff enough you have to move around a lot to compensate! Before you say āmY board is totally fineā thatās what everyone said about their noodle mast 4 years ago when I was the only one obsessing over mast stiffness.
I also think itās more about that obnoxious deep water energy. That deep water energy makes for those big spikes in power and you have to move a lot to deal with that. I honestly find foiling videos almost Unwatchable. I canāt make it 30 seconds into one of those Bennetts clips that wave doesnāt look fun to foil at all if I was stuck on a vacation there Iād be furious. I honestly couldnāt stick with one of those clips long enough to see a front foot move - but I trust you!
Itās not the smaller wings, my regular run in good conditions is 5 miles and I do it on a north 680 and that front foot stays pretty planted. I shuffle my back foot like everyone does but(also like everyone Iāve ever seen) the back foot comes FORWARD to pump.
But back to the topic - here are my golden rules for prone foilā¦
Time on foil - if you want to get better, time on foil is the most critical factor. In the beginning thats wave catching, later itās pumping doubles. A bigger span foil pumps better but too much span can be tricky to catch critical waves on. 925-975mm span is the sweet spot for learning. Only after you are pumping 5x should you consider downsizing to a smaller wing - youāll absolutely give up time on foil if you downsize for better turning. You might regress when you do this because of lost foil time! You can hack time on foil with assistive devices like FD or whatever but if you couldnāt catch waves before FD you wonāt be able to catch them after.
Donāt bother with the wrong gear - if all you have is a 700 cm foil and a 85 CM mast or someoneās old micro 3ā10ā prone board donāt even bother. I still see this a lot - āsome winger sold me this setup on FB marketplace and said āsure you can prone on thatā so now Iām sitting with the Board out of the water on an 85 Mast like Iām On stiltsā
Mushy gutless energy - learning to prone is mostly a quest to find the slowest, mushiest, weakest wave you can get your hands on. Itās never slow enough, itās Never weak enough. Check a bunch of spots, walk out there and look at it and say ātoo criticalā and find some mushy gutless crap.
Dont paddle out with a ripper - Donāt rely on ripping foilers for spots and techniques. I can chip on things that are impossible for a Beginner or someone with different equipment. Because of that I can paddle out wherever is remotely convenient - or to target a specific section half a mile down. If youāre reading this you probably need a better chip and should put more thought into it. Also even if Iām your buddy Iām going to Catch a wave and dissappear miles down the beach and youāll never see me again which is real disheartening when learning.
Your gear isnāt stiff enough - stiffness is the most Critical factor in gear. 90% of the gear I see isnāt remotely stiff enough. Tighten bolts, glue wings onto fuses, learn to feel the flex in the system and evaluate that before each session.
Your gear is crap - I know you come from surfing and $1000 for a used foil seems like a lot of money so you want to baby this thing and itās carbon so itās high tech and bespoke like a formula one car but itās a shitty piece of plastic from CHYNAH Glue it, paint it, drop it, run it into the ground, drag it through the sand. It really doesnāt care. When youāre riding your STANDING ON THIS STUPID THING. It can take whatever abuse you throw at it! Assume your foil looses %10 of its value every month just by nature of it being less current in an ever advancing marketplace you wonāt sell it for remotely close to what you paid so go to town.
Ride the new hotness for a MONTH before selling the old busted - if you have to sell your old bread and butter foil to buy your new bread and butter foil you canāt afford it. New gear is frequently disappointing - especially if you are buying some hype about a hot new smaller foil that pumps like a much bigger foil - you want to keep that old bigger foil until your SURE.
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I think we generally agree then,
Yes this I think is a nuance on the back foot.
My revised rule would be
1.In general, most people need to plant their front foot further back than they do, and make sure you know where that spot is when you dial in a setup
2. Your back foot should roam around between pump and turn mode.
3. For each setup the specifics might be different, and you need to shuffle around until it feels right. Make references on the board.
Your additions are excellent. Agree with them all
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Where did you find this gold! Awesome
Can I have you on as the first guess of my new podcast? Itās going to be called. āI wasnāt wrongā. 
We often have to wait 3 years to release an episode for the foil world to finally understand what weāre saying though. Thatās the annoying part.
Weāre all wrong! Some of us are just more wrong than others!
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Regarding popup for beginnersā¦should we be landing in offset stance like the pros, or right on the centerline?
Personal preferenceā¦ but also youāll find that the more span in your foil, the more offset stance youāll need for it to feel responsive in turns. Iām not really riding large foils anymore, but when I do Iāll offset a little when surfing, and then bring them back to centerline when Iām linking waves.
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I revised the OP with an intermediate section and a beginner section. My original thread was aimed at intermediates and your stuff felt more like aimed at beginner I guess. Good bit of honest toil for the masses to benefit from
Which raises the question, definition of intermediate? Better suggestions?
Maybe can link 5 waves, can turn and breach the tip, knows when the conditions will be reasonable for foiling
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This is a lesson that needs to be taught more often. Too many people are out there on spongy kits with no clue how bad itās holding them back.
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I think there is alot of tried and true wisdom here. Ive been adding thin plastic shims to my mast fuse connections from day 1 just to stiffen up my rig. The engineer in me knew straight away how much it matters. Well also my lifetime experience surfing too.
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