I think we can all agree that there has been remarkable improvement in foil design (for recreational windsports) over the last 10 years. And by improvement, I’m referring to the balance of the various traits such as low drag, low-end lift, high-end controllability, glide, and maneuverability.
How much better will foil design get? There was a lot of cool new stuff at AWSI, but for the first time in the few years that I’ve been following the market, I’m not sure that foils are dramatically better than previous year stuff. I kind of think foils may have matured and we may be entering a period of more incremental improvements. I wonder if it’s possible now to find an “endgame” foil setup that can’t be significantly improved upon in the future.
I think we are more at the point where foil design chases the direction of the sport. As different areas of the sport evolve, foil design progresses to chase and improve that niche. Downwind foiling is a relatively new evolution, and competitive downwind racing is even newer. The foils chasing that direction are evolving and improving very rapidly. a 10 AR wing was very high aspect a couple years ago, now we are seeing 15+ AR from lots of designers.
Who knows what the next evolution will be and how the foils will evolve to build that market. Parawing? Big Wave tow-in? Motor Assisted? Beginner / Mass Market? Probably things I haven’t even imagined.
You are probably right that improvement for surf or wing foils has plateaued and gains are more marginal at this point, but who knows what secrets will be unlocked through evolving another aspect of the sport, which can then be applied back to surf foils.
Materials are another area where we could see some leaps in development.
yeah, there was no single big thing in AWSI. But it doesn’t mean someone won’t have a big breakthrough next year. but clearly there are no more low hanging fruits
At some point - without a massive advance in available materials - wing design becomes limited by the physical design constraints needed to meet the necessary stiffness goals. You can only go so thin or so high aspect before things become fragile / floppy.
That said, foil section experiments may yield some advancements. But again foil sections used by todays designers are generally from a library of previously studied sections (generally NACA NACA airfoil - Wikipedia)
Perhaps we will start to see wings that purposely deform. F1 cars have carbon aero that ‘deforms’ at higher speeds to make it more efficient. Perhaps wings will have high aspect ratios for pumping, and deform when pressed through turns, yielding a better radius.
For every limitation there is a work-around, and I’m excited to see what the future holds.
I hope to see more research into hybrid constructions like Cedrus Evolution and Omen using metals at certain parts of the connection and carbon where it makes sense. Rather than slapping more carbon and epoxy somewhere. It could be possible for all foils to be stronger, lighter, and stiffer with no tradeoffs (probably price). I definitely buy into the idea that metal is better for certain parts like the base plate.
I think we’re still in a pretty exciting time for development and I’m still interested in seeing where the foil kit as a whole goes. I’d predict we see a lot of new mast options coming out in the next year or two. As the mast designs and construction become superior to todays offering it impacts what we can do with and on the foils. A bit of back and forth between mast, tail, front as each gets better, allowing other aspects to get better, and then demanding the first gets better all over again.
For me, honestly, its about dialing in the EXACT span and area i want more than any company’s standout designs. I really feel like alot of companies are making GOOD foils and maybe a few are making GREAT foils but having a good foil in exactly the right size beats having a GREAT foil with a 50mm too much span or 100 sq cm too little area. I feel like this is a symptom of the design part leveling off over the last 2-3 years - alot of folks have caught up. Maybe the new hotness from KT is gonna blow everything up though!
I really feel like materials are tapped out though. I think metal for the front half of the fuse is the way for stiffness and Aluminum is somewhere between GREAT and fine. Maybe going to titanium could give some MARGINAL improvements but thats just weight which is irrelevant.
I’m really hoping we can get somewhere on connection stiffness (like we did on mast stiffness). 5 years ago i feel like i was the only foiler on the planet who cared about mast stiffness and it only took 2 years of bitching and shaming the whole world for the concept to catch on but i think we have alot of gains to make in great connections.
Foiling is currently as advanced as WWII planes. Edit: I guess I dreamed it.
The main audience for foiling just wants to be on foil for 5 minutes at a time. When people finally get bored pumping and going straight we may finally see advances in surf foils that will allow you to surf like a shortboard. Of course that would also require us to go back to crowded lineups. So it’ll be a hard sell.
I thought the same thing when the pp140 was launched You may forget how recent that was, and how far things have come since then
I’m pretty sure the advances have a long way to go, based on how divergent the designs are.
The Axis stabs are unbelievably small.
The KT foil has unbelievable aft camber.
Can you share the link? ww2 planes had very conventional airfoils (think Axis), and so I don’t think that lines up with what he Kane has created.
Kane has mentioned evolutionary algorithm foil design (input= performance characteristics you want, computer figures our the foil section to achieve it), I’d be surprised if that didn’t influence his current foil design. His foil is like nothing else on the market, if you’ve held one in your hands you’d be surprised it even functions. I thought it was pretty insane looking.
KT foil such obvious standout that I don’t think I agree.
I always look at inflatable SUPs and think how stupidly big that market is, and how when I first saw them I couldn’t think of anything less appealing and who the hell would buy one… I think this is what drives the QR plates, who can crack the kook market
I think the World War II analogy is apt, but in the other direction. Aviation developed far more in the first 50 years than the subsequent 75. Between being born in the age of instant global collaboration and rapid prototyping, standing on the shoulders of giants in aviation and previous water sports materials and design, and the pandemic pouring gasoline on the fire I think we’ve had the equivalent of 50 years of aviation advancement in the first 10. Maybe the next 15 gives us the equivalent of aviations next 75 but even then a lot of us are going to be totally happy with the equivalent of a 40 year old Cessna.
With the benefit of hindsight yes that might turn out to be true, but you never know if you are pre or post inflection.
I’m still hoping we are in the single fin era and the twin and thruster years are still to come. At the moment we are effectively still just incrementing on what worked for the airchair to make it work for surfing
Thought the same thing. foil design hasn’t plateaued yet by no means. Kane claiming up to 20-30% more lift/surface area with extreme reflex on the TE and symmetric LE… Which should result in wayy more manouverability for the same lift. Imagine foiling tiny10kt lake waves and actually ripping them like on a shortboard…talking of which, on the other side of the foil size spectrum, shortboards with tiny foils in a non t-configuration that aren’t fully lifting them but just making them plane at much lower speeds in smaller waves…
I’m thinking there’s still lots of room for improvement in the glide efficiency realm as design, materials and manufacturing improve with demand and accumulated knowledge. Hopefully some cost efficiency coming too. Same with the assist market.
SUPs really blew up because they brought the ‘surf’ feel to anyone regardless of ability or access to waves. If pump foiling/assist can do anything in that direction so that anyone with a body of flat water and $1000 can access foiling, then there’s no limit to the growth potential. The majority of the world still things everything foiling is an efoil and costs $10k+.
You may forget how recent that was, and how far things have come since then