Are ML foils worth the hefty price tag? I keep hearing guys like Ken Adgate and some others saying that its hard to go back to other types of foils once on ML. I am interested in trying one but no one around has one.
Depends what you like to do. If the type of foiling you do involves a lot of pumping (downwind, prone), then ML is probably not the best. They donāt feel like they have a āfloorā beneath them on the pump, and they like going fast.
If youāre riding powered, riding fast, riding bumps in good conditions (not a lot of pumping needed), then ML feel incredible. They love to carve, love going fast, and are very very well behaved.
PS: ML suck to take on trips. So if you travel a lot, donāt bother.
PPS: IMO his older foils are a little boring. If you do try them, make sure theyāre the ānewer shapesā - 525, 700, 825.
825 is magical.
New Cabrinha coming out is a collaboration with Mikeās Lab. Might be what youāre looking for for travel. I havenāt seen the system yet myself though.
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Why is mikes lab worse for pumping than code? Isnāt ml more efficient, thinner, better construction. I donāt get why it would pump worse.
Just different characteristics I guess. The same characteristics that make them incredibly pitch-stable at speed, is the same characteristic that makes them not as great at pumping - especially at lower speeds. Maybe itās just a different technique, but when you pump on a ML it feels like thereās nothing āpushing backā.
I would like a more detailed explanation if possible. For me, the more high aspect, and efficient a foil is, the better it pumps. The connection system plays a huge part, which is why non monobloc systems canāt pump as efficiently as mono bloc. Youād imagine that mikes lab has the best pump and glide in the world as they have essentially the best connection system and a great HA design
Iām not an engineer or even a particularly smart person, and Iām not affiliated with any brands. Iām just speaking from experience and āfeelzā so I canāt explain why it works that way.
I will say that the MLs I described (825 etc), arenāt particularly high aspect, and are very āwhale tailā in shape. In feeling they feel like the Armstrong MAII rather than their HA
Edit: Yes they have incredible glide. But I feel like glide is just one part of the pumping equation. If youāre chasing open ocean fast swells, or youāre an expert and can keep the speed high at all times, then sure ML might be considered a great pump wing because it likes those speeds and you can ātap pumpā for speed. But you canāt ādigā out at slower speeds like other wings. When Iām surfing or downwinding, I often have the wing at very low speeds - almost a stall. Thatās just how I like to ride. For me, I canāt pump out of those situations on a ML the same way I can on a Code S or Arm MA.
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Pure speculation, Iāve never ridden ML - but my guess would be this is related to the foil section used. probably less camber and therefore less low end
Very little camber. I also tried to get a good photo of the āwhale tailā shape I was talking about.
Iāve ridden other āhigh aspectā foils like the Lift, Code R, Army DWP etc, and these MLs are definitely not high aspect by comparison.
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ML offers a HA wing
108cm 1150cm2 high aspect pump/prone foil/extreme light wind
Wonder if anyone has ever compared that to the 1130S
They will be using a foil section that is closer to symmetrical, which is more stable at speed, produces less lift and a bunch of other characteristics
Symmetrical vs Cambered Airfoil explained here, they use mostly symmetrical sections on the fastest piston engine planes, which trade off low stability and lift for outright high end speed and stability at speed.
So @Meow your understanding that HA = pump misses the fundamental and entirely overiding aspect of foil section. Foil section also can vary from root to tip, and dictates a bunch of other feelings.
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fwiw, I wouldnāt call the 825 or 700 particularly high aspect these days. but AR isnāt everything. foil section is the most important part of any foil, but itās the hardest thing to see (certainly in a photo).
Glide & Pump are not the same thing. Mikeslab have insane glide.
Heās saying that they donāt have the same low-end (pump, early takeoff, & stall-resistance) as some other options.
However, the ml950 is certainly the exception to that. It feels just like a bigger version of the 825, with a significant boost in low end (Iād say close to as much as the KT atlas 960, but without the drag).
I ride the 825 & 950. Iām huge. I donāt need any more foils. Except maybe something easily replaceable for shallow reef spots.
OP - yes, they are definitely worth it. The problem isnāt the $, itās the waitlist. and itās worth getting the tuttle option with a custom board, which can be tricky to find.
They have a frictionless feel and instant acceleration. Stable yet turny. And are just super easy to rideā¦ which becomes more obvious as you compare to other foils at the extremes (ie. high speed or gnarly weird conditions).
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their pitch stability is stunning.
What is the wait time on their foils? There different masts/wing compatibility is throwing me for a loop. Which wings are good for winging besides the 825(seems like everyone is keeping theirs)
Not sure on wait-times sorry - but Iāve heard things like 12-18 months. They have a good Facebook group (https://www.facebook.com/groups/mikeslab/) that you can ask questions. Itās a very active group and everyone is very helpful.
Definitely look around on there for an 825, you might have a better chance finding one now that the 525, 700, & 950 are the ānew kids on the blockā.
You should be okay with any mast that isnāt made for the older Bullet kitefoils - but people on the FB page will know for sure.
They ride especially smoothly, need a bit more speed (and a reasonably efficient board), and have a locked in stability which feels awesome in bay conditions when you want to crank upwind with minimal mental overhead.
What was most noticeable to me when I owned 2 ML foils (1000, 800), was what others have said - they are easy to ride, and provide a very even lift even when doing a powered roll as you do in a heel side tack.
I think a fair critique is that they donāt have quite the user-test base of some of the larger brands which have a bigger bench doing sports like DW and Parawing. A good rebuttal there is Ken shredding ā¦ but itās a bit like Kai shredding, and harder to generalize. I believe this is why you had a lot of ML diehards adding a second brand to their garage when learning to dw paddle.
The other critique is that with such a long waitlist, if you are a new customer - by the time you receive your product, it may be 1 āgenerationā old. I also canāt help but wonder if we deconstructed some of the innovation a bit, how other brands might improve (e.g. More mono bloc, low friction Tuttle into a lw and stiff Tuttle board).
Mike really stands by his work too - helping a number of customers out on either repairs or warrants quickly and sometimes onsite. I would just say if you are placing an order, ask for it to be in a āsize rangeā to make sure you get the latest/greatest, rather than locking in to an older design.
The 825 loves to be powered up. Well suited for Parawing and Wing, SUP was never my favorite not an easy paddle up and need to keep the speed. Recently sold my 825 kit but may be back on ML at some point. Other mfrs have upped their game so not as big gap to performance as past. Mystic makes a great 30ā bag for traveling I have one in Seattle/Gorge if your looking for used one. And the resale 