New Code Surf Wings - 810x

Foils and Boards - Gear Talk
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Moving this here to keep it together.

Now a few more sessions in, from knee high to overhead, all beach break prone (here and here are surfline clips.

I think it’s great, I prefer the Silk, I don’t really want to as it would be easier to shift to Code as local buddy is on Code and the Code R are super easy for DW.

I think it comes down to one thing:

The 810x has less “return push” when you roll it over, it’s neutral all the way, where the Silk 850 starts to linearly build roll pressure as you lean it over.

(I have zero affiliation, pay retail and am intermediate)

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Have you compared the Enduro to the Code R series? I’ve been on both, not back to back, but I really enjoy the Enduro. Perhaps slightly more than the Code R. I am very much enjoying my combo of Silk for surfing and Enduro for downwind or tiny waves

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Can you explain more about how the connection of f-one is less stiff. It seems like just a normal monobloc construction that is thinner fuse.

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The market have had access to mid aspect series foils that are great to surf on for at least three years and for those of us using brands with these options we only really choose the mid aspect if you are being towed in to wave or winging and the reason has always been that the Mid’s don’t pump unless you oversize them and then you loose the benefits. The SK8 and the silks are a very good example of this.

I have heavy friends who report the flite 707 pumps pretty good so i see the attraction for non assisted prone with that foil. For code X series I have heard mixed reports on the pump game.

As there are plenty of brands with great turning mid aspects a comparison of how the 810X tuns and pumps compared to the 720s would make more sense. They have very similar wing span and if the 720s pumps better then the 810X then that leaves the X series relegated to powered surfing like wing and tow just like the SK8 and silk and army MA’s.

How does the 810X compare to the 720s for pumping and turning?

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I only prone paddle into waves, and only ride the Silk.

You choose the MA if you want to Turn more than you want to Pump. The pump is fine to link a few waves, but requires more effort and skill.

The opportunity with new MA foils is to make it easier to surf more critically, stay in the pocket, push harder than before while being easier to ride, all while not completely killing the pump.

I would suggest anyone riding Code try the 810x as it’s likely an improvement if you are dialled into the S series and looking to do more critical turns.

This makes no sense. The AR and section of 720s is so different to the 810x, and those “tow foils” are all benchmark prone surf foils. The 720s might indeed pump better but that would be irrelevant because it’s a 10AR general purpose foil shape.

As you no doubt know, it’s not a case of asking on the forum “does it turn?” because then you get someone chiming in say yeah it turns great so loose when in reality they’re doing this on the FD.

I think that the only useful “reviews” at this stage are just show your receipts videos of “this is what I can do” evidence (like Spark review above, which I thought was a great review. A video speaks so much more)

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Not yet, waiting to try the 800 and 900 enduro back to back, but likely I’ll end up with 900 as there are more used for sale, and Silk 650 for winter.

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Matt what size silk are you proning and pumping as your everyday foil?

On the whole east coast of Aus i have only ever seen one silk and it was the set sent to Adam. The small ones were not known to pump much at all and especially the 650.

I started prone foiling in 2017 when foils didn’t pump and to this day every prone foiler I have ever met wants that feeling of a chip and then gliding into a bomb out the back and ripping a few turns before it breaks despite this new mid marketing to the contrary.

Now i compared the 720s to the 810x because despite the foil section and design there is still a lot of tip area out wide on the 810X compared to the 720S. Now i imagine the 720s will support a bigger proner than the 810X. So the reality of marketing these mid aspects is a bit of a joke unless they pump really well because a decent size proner will rip the 720s almost as hard as the 810X but with much better pump i would speculate.

For me my 650 SK8 can be pumped under really good circumstances but not reliable enough that i would choose to prone it over the 690 eagle. The 690 eagle turns almost as good as long as it is not overpowered but pumps whole lot better and thereby reliably providing that chip and glide into the bomb.

If someone tells me the 810x pumps as good or better than the 720s then i get the point for prone of the X wings but as these get small sizing they will pump a whole lot worse. Maybe mid make sense for big guys riding the bigger sizes. I don’t know.

I believe the race to mids is about exploiting a narrower wingspan for surfing but with a foil design that provides reliable pump. Now i have been told first hand Flite have achieved this but it doesn’t sound like anyone else has yet so most prone guys will still be riding 10 aspect foils for proning. Maybe axis will get there next of code haven’t.

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That style connection uses the clamping force of the screw for strength and stiffness. Where some other designs don’t use the screws structurally. The screws only function is stop it from falling off. So when the screw is fresh and tight all is good, up until the point of screw flex.

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The F-One mast to fuse connection is only held by the screws. It doesn’t sit within a slot on the fuse. The Code (and Axis) system is based on mechanical connections. The mast actually goes into the fuse where it is held tight on all vectors. The screws only keeping in from sliding when are carrying the board. So both pitch/roll/yaw are mechanically held by the fuse body itself.

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F one not a good design ,less than 3 hours of use and pop

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I think they have a fundamental flaw in their design. Relying on M6 screws for mast2fuse and Mast2Box instead of M8 is a serious issue. They used m6 to keep the fuse as thin as possible and then wanted to keep the same screw size throughout the system therefore used M6 in tue base plate. But that’s clearly the wrong decision and they are kind of locked into it now…

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This is my point, almost. There is clearly a space for a less compromised surf foil at the expense of whatever else.

Erik Geiselman:

I personally like what the foil does in minuscule conditions because of how tight you can ride everything and how technical it actually becomes.

I feel like a little higher speed stuff becomes more like bombing a hill feels, you can still try to bleed speed and you get those awesome g-force lines. But for my attack style, I guess I prefer really tight in the pocket like like kind of wave riding.

This is where we are likely quite different style, and for me I think a 10AR doesn’t work for this style, it’s too fast, rolls too slowly and doesn’t slow down quickly enough. It’s bombing hills which is fine but not what I’m currently after in the surf. Downwind for me is boming hills and G-turns

I don’t believe that Flite have done something that doesn’t have a tradeoff somewhere else, but I’m itching to try it. Listening to Adam on xfoils and the xfoils review, it’s pretty clear the low end is NOT easy, which would make sense. Sure it can be pumped but what would go out the door in 2025 that can’t pump, same as the 810x. Also the Flux is 8.5AR, so I’m not really sure what you mean by 10AR.

Put it this way, the Silk 850 has way more top end than the 810x, and I wouldn’t be surprised if the equivalent Flux makes the same tradeoff.

There is something to surfing these newer gen foils, I’ve found the 810x a challenge to get the most out of it, Dylan mentioned it about the Flux that it required more push. The Silk was an adjustment.

I’ve (70kg) been riding the 850 Silk which I would say is good for small waves, I’d go 750 if I could, but it doesn’t exist and I also have DW race and can’t afford more foils so the 850 is doing duty for downwind PW as well. 8 AR is so good for waist high waves, which is about where foiling is the most fun (for me and Erik at least).

I too first foiled in 2017 when foils didn’t pump. They first figured out how to make them pump, and that was great but turning was useless, and now they are figuring how to make them turn.

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Hi Matt,

There is some value in this discussion so i will try to keep some energy going.

I think we both agree that the new mid aspect foil resurgence is about riding closer to where we ride as a surfer, but you need a wave with a pocket for that to be feasible so we are talking about waves that are more like normal, but soft surfing waves for these foils.

70kg on an 850 silk is a very big surf performance compromise as this foil in reasonable waves is more suited to someone closer to 90kg. If you rode the 650 you would still be very well powered up but you can’t pump it. Silks are from an older mid aspect era and come with the significant pump versus performance penalty. You would likely surf a lot better on any small HA offering in waves with a pocket. 690 fone, HA680 army, code 720s. in thigh high slop then yeah maybe 850 and loving life for you but not for me.

Lets talk about Adam and Eric for prone. At around 80kgs they are riding 707 with about 75cm span in the tiniest crap without a pocket and are pumping around really well.

Adam proned the 650 silk and 650 SK8 in the tiniest waves also but they didn’t pump well enough to make it work. For a good 18 months he chose the aspect 10 eagle 690 with a span of 82 over these mid options also in the tiniest of conditions, in waves without barely a perceptible pocket. Also in good waves of course. From the water there was no way to determine the difference in his performance between the 690 and the 650 or the silk for that matter. To ride even a 750 SK8 was giving away too much let alone an 850.

Now i have watched Adam for over 12 months and now Eric riding the 707 in tiny crap and ripping at an a very high level and pumping around pretty easily. It seems they have found a very good balance between pump and performance that hasn’t been available in other foils till this point. I can see the performance improvement in smallish tighter waves.

I have also have friends that have tried the 707 and of note is a very good foiler of 90kg+ who said the foil pumps really well.

Have code achieved the same thing and will there be a code 700X for example that pumps in everday surf or do us lighter riders have to upsize to get some pump but give away any turning gains? Will axis be able to achieve the same thing?

We all need to be able to pump at least a 3 for 1.

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Yeah ive been contemplating ordering the f4 system but trying to figure out if they have the same mast flaw as the f-one

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Wait. What?

No.

Sk8 750 is my daily driver for prone. As I imagine similar wings are for a lot of people. Don’t be lazy. Surf how you want to surf and work a little to do it.

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Now i have watched Adam for over 12 months and now Eric riding the 707 in tiny crap and ripping at an a very high level and pumping around pretty easily. It seems they have found a very good balance between pump and performance that hasn’t been available in other foils till this point. I can see the performance improvement in smallish tighter waves.

Okay well your first issue is that you’re using Eric & Adam as a guide for how the foil will perform for the masses. I remember in some of my very first prone sessions, Adam was out there riding his old Vyper design - and getting 5 for 1s. I certainly wouldn’t say these days the Vyper is a good pumping surf foil…

I think Jon Mann said in one of the many podcasts, that all modern foils pump well in all sizes - they just work at different speeds. If you can keep the Flux, X series, Sk8s etc at a higher speed, they pump well. They might require more work because you don’t have the “rebound” that higher aspects have - but in removing that “rebound” (especially in the roll), that’s what makes an excellent surf foil.

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Yes glad to get clarity on this. It’s a pity this convo isn’t happening on this thread

In rough order of importance though I feel like only 1 is relevant to the drift of where we started:

  1. Code viability: Yes I think Code with the ~700X will achieve 3-1 no problem for me, not digging through absolute slop but in clean waves I don’t think it will at all be a challenge. I feel like this is the essence of your point and it’s entirely low probability speculative in my opinion. Is Code not popular in your area? I don’t really see pumping 3-1 likely to be a challenge on any of the current crop, the 810x is super easy to dig out.
  2. On what pros ride: As we know from surfing, what a pro rides is almost entirely irrelevant to intermediates. 99% of surfers would benefit from more float, more forgiving rails etc but they get suckered into knifey shortboards (joke how many get sold in the UK), the foil equivalent is the same, bogged turns and not keeping the small foil moving.
    I do agree with you that most should try smaller foils. Also because of steep progress, the latest foils are still ~always better
    But “too small” bad .Surfboard wisdom applied. I’m riding a “performance mid” and happily enjoying it.
  3. Smaller foil: I don’t think the 850 or 810x are too big for my conditions. It’s not perfect, but it a sensible compromise. I would prefer a 700 foil, I would also prefer the waves to be better. Note I never tow, crap UK waves, always paddle. Most people are on similar sized foils or bigger.
  4. UK vs Aus A year ago was mostly riding an 1100 foil, and before that even bigger Axis, because at the time I was learning downwind and pumping was focus (as one does). Now the 850 feels like a shortboard to me. Boots, 5.5mm wetsuit, onshore 15-30kn for most of the year. Very different situation to Aus where a fullsuit is rare and towing is not? Tom Earl as a pro is on 750 sk8 (my top alt option). In SA (ZAF) the 850 always felt too big, as you’d expect.
  5. Choosing foils: I’d love more performance foils but the waves don’t justify it. I’m currently testing a mates Code foils while he is injured, I haven’t tried the 720s but that would be my choice. AFS Silk and F-one Sk8 are old. If there was a Silk 700 and I could afford more then I’d ride that as daily driver If wishes were horses etc I’d have way more foils
    My multi-dimensional optimisation:
    foil_brand (available used, excellent downwind, excellent surf, rock solid mast, UK warranties).
  • Code: (available used=NO)
  • KT: (available used=NO)
  • F-one: (rock solid mast=NO)
  • Armstrong (rock solid mast=NO)
  • Axis: (excellent surf=NO)
    etc
  1. Flux: I assume from what you’ve said that you do have some association with Adam, or a loose sense of affiliation (that’s not a dig) or you’ve ordered one or something? (only way to piss off a foiler is to cast doubt on hist latest and greatest)
    I do think from listening to Erik when describing Flux foil, it’s exactly what I’ve described in comment below. Adam clearly has an extremely specific feeling he is after, and pushing hard to get it
  1. Axis: Because of how fine the margins are for “great”, I wonder. An improvement on the absolute best Axis (Art v2 I guess??) would still not necessarily even feature. And a foil is the sum of mast, stab, and fuse all in refined harmony… Pitch stability is the thing that Adam goes on about on Flux. I won’t say more here
  2. Surf style: It’s hype but also an avenue for opportunity and to keep it interesting and refine things. I do think that surf style is an extremely self-defeating line of development for foiling, (to make it more and more critically surfable), because now foils needing actual waves, with surfers, in the actual lineup to be fun? Seems like a risky direction, I’m now burning surfers to get onto waves, LOL!

In good faith I out of curiosity would like to see footage of your prone surfing in various conditions on the 690 f-one (not tow), if possible? (If you have a reason not to because famous, infamous, anon then DM)

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I think it’s a reasonable marketing play since “pure surf” is good hype for most disciplines and also these are reasonably good foils for winging and FD etc. I think for winging they’re probably better than old old old mid aspects like the Vyper but probably not drastically. Prone/surf just demands a higher level of refinement all around. if they had to live off just surf foilers buying this thing they wouldn’t even sell enough to justify the molds.

thank god prone is cool so we can trick wingers and FDers into paying brands to developing cool stuff for us!

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Hahaha

Seems you wandered off again Matt.

My points were specifically aimed at whether a so called mid aspect foil is the latest and greatest for performance surfing and whether code has improved anything on foils release 3 years ago in this space.

Fact is, Armstrong and Fone, lift, just to name a few, ( i know there are many others) have had pretty well performing mid aspect foils for many years but they also offer 10 aspect foils. Now the sponsored riders of those brands and most others primarily ride the 10 aspect foils in the surf when paddling in under their own steam. This is because most brands offer both and for all round performance paddle in foiling, the aspect 10 has been totally dominate in its all round performance in balancing turning with pumping and glide. Yes Tom Earl is a bit of an exception as he does seems to choose oversize mids by comparison with his peers and does look powered up. You could ask him why no 650 SK8

Now lets focus on today.

Flite only have one model to release and it is aimed primarily at the Proner but will also suit wingers. This is philosophically significant so it obviously must offer relatively easy pumping otherwise its a fail. I have passed on a report that it definitely pumps well and we can see it turns amazing and why wouldn’t it with a narrower wing span for its relative size and lift compared to a 10 aspect offering. Adam’s requirements are likely the same characteristics we all want, mid aspect turning with 10 aspect pumping and glide.

Now Code release a mid. They also happen to offer a range of 10 aspect and 13 aspect. The question is simple. Will it pump enough to make the surf 10 aspect range redundant or is it just another competitor to the silk and SK8 and to appease their winger customers?

I am not interest in a pi$$ing competition with you over who foils what and how well. My opinion either stacks up or it doesn’t. You should read it.

Fair bit of ego and judgement on who and who aren’t my friends so i will leave it at that. I come here to try and add some balance to the regurgitated marketing and hopefully save some people some frustration and money.

I ride fone with no plans to change. I purchased my foils, some second hand even and don’t have any friends riding them.

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Me personally as someone who owns almost every code wing, I don’t have any interest in the x series. I also own the afs silk but very rarely use them unless I’m towing larger waves where the silk 650 shines. I feel like code is just expanding their product line so it can be a one stop shop, so you don’t need to get a silk or sk8. Owning multiple masts is a bit redundant so it’s better to have everything under one roof. I feel like code is capitalizing on trying to sell foils to a larger market, before it was downwind or intermediate proners, now it’s foil drivers and other beginner level foilers, as evidenced by the 1725S, and the foil drive mast. Nothing wrong with that, but as someone who primarily rides the R, it’s not exactly the direction I would personally want to see, but downwind is a very niche part of the overall market and I’m happy to see them try to make money from a wider audience, they definitely deserve it

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