Prone foil bifurcation - what maximizes fun?

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Tagging off the lift thread, figured it might be interesting to break it off.

Just what I’ve noticed in our local prone crew, it seems we are seeing a bifurcation/stratification in the approaches to prone foiling.

Type 1 approaches with a surf mentality - surf-ability at the expense of pump/glide. Linking 2-3 waves and shredding, but paddling a lot more (back out to lineup, ect.).

Type 2 approaches with a time on foil mentality - prioritizing number of waves. Linking 5+ waves, but limited on maneuverability due to wing span and size.

I think both have their merits, but interesting seeing major manufacturers come out with lines to cater to both. Lift has the Havoc vs the HAX lines, Code has R vs S, Armie has HA vs MA.

I probably fall more into the first category, but a lot of the guys I foil with ride big foils that they can pump well, but cant turn very well. I’ve had an uphill battle trying to talk them into riding their smaller foils and getting more out of them, but I do wonder if I’d benefit from cruising on a big wing and trying to go for 10 min runs instead of tapping out after 3 min of flying.

Curious to hear arguments in favor/against one type or the other, and where people see things going/what balance strikes you as optimal.

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1 style fits in with grumpy surfers and they have no problem with it. The other style makes grumpy surfers upset and they talk about banning foiling.

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You got me with this one—I’ll bite. Basic pumping hinges on technique, while advanced pumping is all about endurance. Most in my group opt for the smallest wings possible, aiming to link 3-5 waves while maintaining excellent wave performance. However, I’m taking a different approach, often riding with giant wings. I see myself as the beta tester for my theory.

In endurance sports, like distance running, the principles are clear: improvement comes from consistent effort. Running a mile daily for seven days beats running seven miles once a week. Similarly, building speed and endurance is more effective with slower, sustained runs rather than short bursts. Avoiding injury and maintaining consistency are key to building endurance, a process that compounds over months or even years.

If these principles apply to foiling, the quickest way to build pump endurance is through prolonged sessions, repeated frequently.

(I’m 6’3”, 200 lbs, and 43 years old.) When I began, I could only link 3-4 waves with my giant wing setup (Axis 1150). Now, I consistently ride waves for 7-20 minutes each (with a personal record of ~29 minutes).

For smaller wings, my sessions look like this:
Progression 140: linking 2-4 waves for ~1.5 minutes, repeated 10 times per session = ~15 minutes total pumping.

Medium wings:
Progression 170: linking 4-7 waves, staying up for 2-3 minutes each time, repeated 10 times per session = ~25 minutes total pumping.

With larger wings, like the Axis 1150, I can catch 4 waves. For instance, in a recent session, I pumped for approximately 20 mins + 7 mins + 11 mins + 6 mins = ~44 minutes total.

Switching from medium to large wings increases pump time from ~25 to ~44 minutes—a 76% increase per session. This theoretically enhances both endurance and active recovery. However, this remains unproven, as the sport is still new, and few are exploring this approach.

My strategy moving forward involves maximizing foil time before eventually downsizing my wing to refine technique.

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Who cares about grumpy surfers. They were grumpy before foiling came along. As long as no one is getting cut off there should be no problems and this definitely shouldn’t influence anyone’s decision on style/foil choice.

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Started off as 1 and now care more about 2. Stop worrying so much about surfers, just be safe and have fun.

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I think it depends a lot on local conditions. I prone on the great lakes, and days with decent waves I want to spend as much time on foil as possible because the waves fade very quickly after the wind dies off. If I lived somewhere with more abundance I’d focus more on type 2 fun :slight_smile:

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So if I’m understanding correctly, you’re trying to frontload the fitness then use that to springboard your progression with regard to ‘performance’?

Essentially, your theory is that improvement comes from time on foil, and by catering to fitness (maximizing time on foil) that will later pay dividends when you can keep smaller/more maneuverable wings in the air for longer, at which point you can/will start investing in the other areas (carving, hitting white wash, ect).

Thus after a set period of time you will be a better all-around foiler than you would have been had you grown all areas of your foiling (turning/carving AND pumping) at the same time.

Very interesting.

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Exactly. My theory matters less if your schedule allows you to ride all day anyway. As a father and husband with time constraints, how can I achieve the fastest return on investment with the least amount of time?

Another point to note is that time on foil has an exponential effect. For example, pumping a surf wing for 30 seconds typically allows you to link 2-3 waves. Extending that pump duration to 1:15 total, increases the ability to link 7-12 waves. If you can pump that same surf wing for 2 minutes straight, that can equate to 20-30 minutes on foil linking waves (assuming your other ocean skills are solid). Therefore, even a 20-30 second increase in sustainable pumping time is substantial.

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I think the natural evolution is to do type 2 first. You try to foil, then dial the pumping, then link as many waves as possible. Eventually you can stay on foil for a really long time and surfing the wave becomes more interesting, it’s that next challenge nagging you. From there comes the type 1 endeavor where you sacrifice the time on foil to really score steep turns on the waves, it’s shorter but very intense. Type 1 requires better conditions, spot, fitness, or a way to be towed… it’s somewhere between sticky surfing and type 2. It’s different flavors of the sport I would say, there is beauty in all of those, you choose depending on local conditions and personal preferences and constraints. It’s amazing to have such good toolbox to ride all types of conditions.

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Both -
Sometimes it so glass - clean and small rollers running long that a longboard style kind of foiling it’s so fulfilling - pumping and gliding effortlesly and keep it running as long as your lunges and legs lets you
Other times the wall is big and clean enough to go and try to rip it!!!

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And yes- - You’ll need two foils for that!

Since I Downwind and wing too - it’s a multipurpose allocation of foils for each style of prone foiling.
The “big” 1100HA AR11 for just pump & glide that’s also working good for me for SUP Foil DW and for lightwind winging

And the more surf oriented SILK 650/850 that’s also my choice for winging according to wave size.

I wouldn’t go for anything in the middle in terms of AR and sacrificing glide vs carving now that foils are getting actually really good at both and going better at specializing - it’s a budget thing thou - I know!

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You buy a FD Gen 2. Pumping is for the poors.

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my evolution was exactly the opposite. Early on, I just couldn’t pump well enough to link waves and I thought pumping back out was stupid - it was all about ripping up the wave for me. Then once I figured out how to pump halfway decent, that became the fun. So I’m all about balancing great glide and pump-ability without total sacrifice to wave riding.

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The manufacturers have spoken. Downwind is all that matters. Type 1 has been hung out to dry!

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Why sell you a board for $800, when they can sell you a DW board for $2000!

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Exactly this - some days conditions are made for pumping and connecting waves, but not ripping wave faces. Other days you take the surfy foil and try to ‘hit’ the top of the wave and do fast G-force cutties.

Both are awesome in their days. Horses for courses.

That’s the beauty of foiling; you can have fun almost every day .

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Yes the classic pump or rip conundrum. For me it used to be the spitfire or kujira2 or silk if I wanted to rip waves whilst towing. Or it was the 1201 if I wanted to connect waves. But ever since I got the 980 and the rest of the code foils. It became about doing both in a perfect balance. Unless you have a boat to tow you, the non code foils are useless. It sucks since I recently bought the silks right before getting code and I hate that I put them to early retirement so soon. Also I’ve towed more waves than several lifetimes in one year so I’m also done with towing.

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If you buy a FD, you’ll get fat! Erik said so on the his most recent podcast…

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Small high aspect foils are super fun in the surf imo

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Yeah i got a laugh at that. Fatten Drive? ElderlyFoil? lol

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