That is funny but also sucks.. See others in the youtube comments too, sadly too common. Now I wonder how long my former f-one mast will last.
My Code mast also required another layer to tighten the connection which was not good but it is an easy fix with epoxy or tape.
What, no âlegacy 2020 designâ foils in that lake? A design that relies on
M6 bolts under cyclic bending and shear forces is no good.
What he doesnât mention (but hints at) in the video is the mast was probably damaged and unusable. Very expensive lesson there.
Anyone have experience with Gongs V3 range? How are they performing compared to the other big brands? They are a lot cheaper and have a huge range, but do you still get what you pay for?
That vid (although funny!) gives me very cold feet towards any foil system using that connection.
Maybe Mikeâs Lab has it sussed but it looks like other brands are playing wizardâs apprentice.
I think i will just wait and stay with my Cab 850 for one more year , time will sort the systems out.
I donât think ML necessarily the strongest connection. ML is known for those race foils mostly and all those wings are really short span and racing keeps everything really controlled and in column compared to a flat water pump foil or a higher span surf foil that gets run aground surfing in the trough and is breaching tips on a gnarly wave.
After going AFS, Iâve personally made do with bolts that are too short at the mast/fuse connection, since those require longer bolts than mortise/tenon connections. I doubt Iâm the only one to have done it.
If your in the steel insert it doesnât take many turns in the threads to match the bolt strengthâŠwhere as too long of a bolt will 100% rip that mast apartâŠit wouldnât surprise me if that busted AFS was from bolts forcing the inserts apart(Iâm not accusing anyone of anything Iâm just saying if you told me that was what happened I wouldnât be shocked)
Iâm currently riding Gong V3 Veloce.
The mast inserts into the fuselage in a Tuttle like configuration that is self tightening and I donât think thereâs much pressure on the M6 bolts.
The foils& stab insert into the fuselage in a Gofoil like way, but triangular shaped that is self tightening.
Again, no pressure on the bolts.
They are well built (riding the Titanium fuselage into the Cedrus adapter).
Itâs an incredible price points for such a great foil, they feel very similar to Code in their profile.
The VĂ©loce is very thin and the stab is stupid small and very thin, eg the Veloce Small front foil is 11.5mm thick.
Iâm pretty much using my Veloce M V3 for all conditions from 10 to 35+knots and switch the the Small only in the biggest waves.
Thereâs a new stab system that allows shimming if youâre into that.
I havenât touched my other foils since I received this one.
Biggest negative is they are very sharp.
I can confirm from todayâs antics that ML has a very strong connection.
I hit some hidden reef going full blast and absolutely no damage to the connection. Front of the foil sustained some scratches, otherwise fine. Thankfully it looks like most of the rocks were covered in kelp.
To the point of the original thread, I donât think I could ever go with one single system⊠I love surfing and downwinding Code, I love kiting Slingshot, and I love winging ML.
ML is not all about racing on small foils. They have many larger, wide span foils that target surfing, downwind, light wind winging, you name it: 1150, 1600, 1300, 950.
I so often hear that thee M6 bolts to hold the fuse is not enough. From an engineering point of view, while the m6 bolts are in tension, they are way more than enough. Its important to tighten the fasteners to full torque and monitor for loosening, till you are familiar with your setup, if you are pushing it. The carbon fuse will let go way earlier if the joint is kept in pure tension and yet is stronger than a tuttle. The case of the AFS found on the bottom is what happens when the carbon fails.
The issue with fone can happen in three ways that i know of. The first two are the same and one of the posters on here had the exact issue. The fasteners are m6x32. Not 30 and not 35. 35 wonât tighten enough and 30 wonât hold enough threads. You wouldnât believe how common this is.
The third reason is repetitive jumping or leverage from the heavy weights and wide wing span work the bolts a little loose and now the fasteners will fail from cyclic stress as the joint becomes a little loose and fasteners no longer in pure tension.
Jumping an 816 momentum foil, 16.5 aspect, span 115cm many times before it broke is testament to the strength of the joint when first torqued up.
The only brand with a future proof mast to fuse connection in my opinion is gofoil and now possibly flite. All those brands with Tuttle joints will also suffer if you leverage them up with wide wing span and heavy weight. Plenty of failures going on there also.
It pumps plenty well. I can go 1 for 5 in the right conditions, its not a HA foil but for pure surf. I think its the best out there. I wing it, prone it, SUP foil it. But everyone has their opinion on what they think is good. To me, its a multidisciplinary foil.
Itâs all good in theory, in practice, you canât get any reliable information on proper torque to use with various brands and even within brands as to what to use depending on the material used for their bolts and thread.
Add Tefjel and other lubricants to the mix for extra fun.
How many people you know torque their bolts with torque drivers? I bought one way back when because people were over torquing their original slingshot bolts and breaking them.
I specifically asked F-one on numerous occasions for torque specifications and thereâs no reply.
What are we supposed to torque at?
Thereâs still no answer to that "simple"question I can see anywhere.
Doesnât it say 15nm (seems extreme) underneath the f-one mast baseplate?
M6 and M8 have very different torque settings. 15Nm is too much for M6 should be around 8-9. M8 would be around 15 - 16Nm. This also depends on the material of the bolts but it wouldnât change much from there.
I will also add that M6 screws are very easy to stretch. Once they start to yield, they lose a lot of strength. People tend to think that M6 is only 2mm smaller than M8 so should be strong enough. Not soâŠM8 is WAY stronger.
Re. M6x32 screwsâŠthis specific length is very hard to find so makes it more difficult to replace often.
I suspect this is alway not the case due to the weird countersunk holes on the F-One fuse (variance between different fuses), but I checked a friendâs setup and M6x30 is theoretically long enough. Another myth is that the more thread engagement you have, the stronger the joint. Common belief is thread of engagement of 1x the diameter is the most strength youâll get. M6x35 is definitely risky as it might bottom out in the carbon and pull the insert out.
Honestly canât go wrong with either. Iâm on KT Atlas and Code S series so it is kind of apples to oranges- approx 9 ar to 11ish ar. That said I think they are both comparable in their versatilityâŠthe Code S is more a surf foil that glides very well and the Atlas is a HA foil that turns/surfs very well. A case could be made to do 90% of your foiling on a 720/980s or 790/960 Atlas. I own all 4 of those. But⊠the more I ride the KT 790, the more it feels like with a few nomad and atlas tails, it could work as an do almost everything 1 foil quiver. The range is unreal- even for my 95kg. Gets me up almost as easy as the code 980 which itself has good bottom end. It rolls incredible-accelerates through turns. Its bottom end winging gets me going pretty easily,in 13+. Havenât found the top end. Have surfed in knee high to overhead. My plan was to hold onto the code s foils as I lovâem, but at the moment, theyâre collecting dust.
I will always recommend Armstrong simply because itâs bulletproof. It will never rust. It is ridiculously modular. And they have team riders winning competitions in every discipline.
But this isnât to say the other brands arenât good. I know many people that ride Code, Lift, Unifoil, Cloud IX, F-One. Theyâre all pretty damn good. I just donât think they will last as long as Armstrong long term. Just my $.02. All my Armstrong gear was used and I 've had it 5 years with zero issues. Canât say the same for Lift, Unifoil, Cloud IX, and some F-One stuffâŠ
Except for wing racing which Armstrong has chosen not to develop gear for at least for now.