Downwind race and competition formats

James Casey mentioned the need to make downwind racing more interesting. Suggestions include multi day etc

I totally agree with the sentiment. For channel crossing like M2O it is technical enough to just leave it, but every other race is pretty much entirely one dimensional.

I thought something that might make an interesting dynamic (basically what makes sailing interesting), is foiling harder angles, ie not directly downwind:

A slight angle, just hard enough that you might need to choose a slower foil, choose what angle you pump and be more selective of the lines (VMG comes into play).

Then the interesting part being that the turning marker buoy gets released onto a drogue once the fastest rider is past, making the angle easier for the riders behind. This is a pretty easily applied handicap, and also allows for slower riders not to have to ride such a tight angle, or even ride straight assuming that the marker will drift onto their line. This means the finishes will be more dense, which is also a positive, and the 3rd place can maybe catchup with first.

Suggestions to improve this? Any idea why it might not work?

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So we are considering running an event based around a short run (5 miles) thats easy to shuttle. We can shore run, or take that run offshore. The idea for the event is there’s a pickup running a shuttle the whole time and you can do as many runs as you want. There’s a sign-in sheet at the windward end and a sign-in at the downwind end with official clocks at both - Honor system and MASSIVE RIDICULE PUBLIC SHAMING if your caught cheating. Shore run it, wing it, DW, whatever. Maybe put a bouy offshore that has to be kept to one side for an “Offshore” division. Just upwind of the launch is a great prone/wave spot for a freestyle prone/wing wave contest that is judged by best photo/video and have an event photog posted.

Awards for each “class” wing, prone, DW, etc. Multiple runs so you can change gear and run multiple classes. Awards for fastest run, SLOWEST RUN, youngest, oldest, Most runs. Fastest UPWIND (for the wingers). Any division someone wants to make up will be scored and announced at awards but if its ridiculous hillarity will ensue (“this cucumber is awarded to…”). Freestyle divison will be best photo, best video, and best crashes, etc.

Give it a 3 day window for the event and it gets run on the best of the 3 days. If conditions are great multiple days it gets run for multiple days.

Realistically looking at one person in the pickup all day and one photog. the local “host” team probably trades off through the day so everyone gets a few runs in.

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Sign me up

Let riders joust. That will increase participation and interest.

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Because all the Hawaiian DW racers only care about going fast in a straight line and just changed the M2O course that did exactly what you’re talking about. I’m going to love it if the wind is bad this year and half of them refuse to even race because the conditions aren’t good. :slight_smile:

Real reason. You have to be WAY better to race the way you described. Most DW’ers at this point can barely go DW. Give it a few years to develop. Then I think your idea will work.

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Strap a pillow on the end of the paddle and send it!!

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This sounds super fun. I like the idea of multi-day continual runs. Also having a gate (maybe an inshore for prone/dw and an offshore for wing) seems worthwhile just to see what comes of it. What I guess it maybe lacks is a “final” where you have something of a showdown and a resolution as to the winner. Not sure how to incorporate that.

I guess novelty “challenges” could go the way of Twin tip kite racing (nowhere), but it seems worth experimenting.

Yeah it will go the way of surfing where the Brazilians dominate because the contests are all held in crap condition, DW becomes dominated by the Swiss rollerbladers or something :sweat_smile:

I do think Downwind is more interesting if held in challenging conditions, but I can imagine it quickly splitting into distinct Offshore and Inshore racing styles (much like sailing or SUP).

Yeah thats why I thought to drop the buoy to drift once the leader rounds it, making it easier for the rest.

Fwiw I’ve got an entry to the french race - wish me luck

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i’m mostly concerned about events that are fun to DO. I don’t really care at all about it being fun to watch or being “the ultimate measure of top tier athletes”.

For me this is more of a response to the Charleston Fort to Battery Race and the Foil Surf race in FL which are sucessful because people want FUN and Community - even despite the event formats which, frankly, suck.

I come from sailboat racing where i used to bop around the Southeast a few times a year plus a couple of local races and it was great fun, see some faces, bounce around on the water, drink some beers and eat BBQ at the end of each day watching the hilights on a screen. It was great. I think foiling needs THAT more than it needs M2M or whatever the euro wing foil surf series is (again i couldn’t care less) - which are more d*** measuring contests for the brands and their representatives than fun things for regular ppl to participate in.

I think these big time “real” DW races are kind of stupid. Traveling with DW gear to these epic locations plus logistics - i bet its $5K++ per race. So your only doing it if your going to be competitive - so only if you also live in an epic DW place… I don’t know i honestly couldn’t care less.

Another thing i’d add is the multiple run/multiple gear format makes things much more approachable. I’m not committing huge $$ on one monster run that i might totally fail…if i fail to get up on DW gear i can do prone (many chances to chip) or wing (which a monkey could do). If i rig the wrong foil i rig another on my next run.

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Bring on the Strava segments for DW!

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what you describe sounds like the Aussie race, (race + bbq meet and greet) unfortunately they didn’t get the conditions, so whatever format would have still sucked to do and watch.

I think you need the top level, you need the entry level, latter needs to have an emphasis on fun, but needs to provide a stepping stone.

The Hawaii race series is genuinely interesting (despite the misgivings) because they are unpredictable challenging tactical competitive races. Almost every other race has been pure pumping.

What I think is missing is an interesting format Straight pump races are boring as a concept with zero tactics.

Something I suggested to James was a team format, where you can use anything to get the team across the line first, maybe a tow rope winger towing prone.

I think the emphasis should be to make it less about pumping and more about foiling skills or bump reading or tactics, basically to add some depth to it

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We have wanted Strava to work offshore for years. It does but it is impossible to search for segments as Strava won’t show any segments that are on water.
We have a lot of segments set up at our local but there is no way to find them via a search.

I love the idea, but unfortunately, the pickup logistics are going to cause a ton of complaining. Folks will have to get in a line of people at the pickup, then some number of them will load up and some will have to be waiting for the next ride. On casual downwinding the logistics dominate the time unfortunately.

What about requiring everyone to submit a GPS tracking file to verify and average each racer’s top 3 runs over 2-3 days. Racers could self submit their times, winners would be subject to verification of the GPS data.

sounds like at least the M2O is quite a bit more expensive than that given all competitors are required to have a support boat along for the ride

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I think a pickup with a cargo trailer could run 8 people at a time with whatever gear. 5 mile run is a 30 min round trip at beach speeds, average wait is 15. The key is there’s no “start” so there’s never a big groups showing up at the same time, people just filter in. Add a cooler of refreshments and some snacks at the pickup I don’t think people would complain. I mean we all do shuttle DWers where you do the round trip (full 30) to set the DW then again after to get the first car.

Id also say the one pickup is for a 20-30 person event. I personally don’t want to deal with bigger than that. If someone else were to do a 100 person event I’d say 3-4 shuttles

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I wonder if Webscorer feature might work. It is used by most of the race hosts to track points already. It looks pretty useful.

Do you have a need to track racers during an event for safety purposes ?
Do you want to enable your racers to check that they’re staying on course while racing?
Do you want to provide spectators at race venue and at home a real-time view of the race-in-progress ?
Do you want to enable support personnel to know when to expect their racer to arrive at finish?
Do you want to create a record for each racer’s course for later analysis (e.g. to catch cheaters )?
In short, the racers carry their personal phones while racing and the Webscorer app automatically sends its GPS coordinates to the Webscorer website at an interval set by the organizer. The GPS location of each racer is viewable on a map that’s accessible using a browser from any device.
GPS TRACKING OF RACERS

They also have a QR code timing thing that seems pretty ideal for @TooMuchEpoxy’s event…

The pickup seems like a good setup, just have a pile of cloth or towel handy to wrap boards and foils, and ideally nominate someone to coordinate loading and you could have quick turnaround.

People don’t even realise they are waiting once they get talking.

This looks like a good free way to create a race (simpler and cheaper than webscorer above), basically set start and finish pins and then anyone with the app can do the course and their time gets captured. Seems to allow you to start at any time, has a leaderboard, and multiple submissions. Only hassle will be people’s phone batteries dying, so maybe lower tech is better.

However many guys beat you, that’s how many beers you have to drink.

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yes!

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Great video. Perhaps the most entertaining downwind video, this is a great format to cover races.

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Definitely seems that there would be interest varying the formats. I think leaving the triple crown as is seems sensible, it is what it is, they just need to sort out the boat wake issue, and maybe make it 3x longer to turn it into less of a sprint.

On the topic of adjustable course, which is mostly to make it fun for the intermediates, as pumping across the wind might not be viable for all, the idea of adjustable course markers. You could set it to make the course easier once the leaders have rounded the mark. Throwing this here as a reference, probably not at all cost effective for foiling just yet