Have you seen anything comparing sultan to phantom?
The bit in the vid where he paddles into that unbroken wave, for me that just showed how much glide this board has - it just looked so smooth, very impressive.
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I asked Josh for you. He said he’ll have one in a month. So you’ll have to wait a bit, but not to long.
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How is your experience with the Dagger so far? Are you happy with the size? Im 77 kg ant cant decide between 7’0 and 7’5.
I’m 75kg and just got the 7’5 dagger. Glad I didn’t get 7’0. I’m sure I’ll want the smaller size eventually, but the 7’5 has been enough of a struggle so far. Only been sup foiling tiny waves with it, no dw attempts yet. Just waiting for some wind. But trying friends boards that are a bit smaller (90-100 L) I’m glad I’ve got the extra volume. Though I’m sure 6 mo from now I’ll wish it was smaller.
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Fwiw had a few goes on the Axis Hybrid 6’4 x 24 at 110L with my weight 70-75kg with wetsuit with near zero small sup experience but lots of ~100-110L intermediate windsurfing experience and a high level of longboard surfing (can balance standing on a stationary log longboard no problem)
My experience of the board was that the first day was a pain, really nearly impossible to go straight, constant falling, no chance of any power for catching waves. Second day was much better, caught a few tiny waves and could balance the board and get some rocking motion to engage the foil, able to straight line for 5-10 strokes
As with the foil where the temptation was to go high aspect early and then huge relief when the MA foil settles things, I intend not to overdo it again and get something that will be forgiving. I’m hoping that I can do 100L Appletree 6’11x20 when I get around to ordering while trying a few boards in between the that and the Axis. Progress is rapid though and I don’t doubt the used market will be busy once everyone sizes down.
I’m enjoying my 6’3” 85L Armstrong Board for my 65kgs pre 5/4 etc. Only real sup experience has been on my 12’6 touring board, so this is a whole new ball game. Still working out the J stroke, but I’m happy to say I’m not falling in really unless I completely botch a paddle up attempt.
I’m three or four short sessions in and not able to pop up yet. Closest I got was with my hand paddles, which are idiot proof, but tiring.
I previously demoed the 100L in flat water and the ease kinda made me think the 85L would be better in the long run.
My goal is to be ready for longer dw sends next fall, as we have a long summer with plenty of time to flat water train and small swells to play around in.
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Would love to hear your continued thoughts on this board, as I’m about the same weight and ready to pull the trigger on a downwind board. I was able to demo a 7’5" FFB dagger, and it didn’t impress me, but maybe it was just too big for me.
I have winged about 130 miles with it in mostly light wind conditions. I recently started to flat water paddle it, and can balance fairly well on it. Looking forward to some short DW attempts. I’m about 65 kgs
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Got my hands on an early 7’3 x 22.5’ x 109 ltr Appletree downwind board, model is called Skipper Downwind and will be released soon. Don’t have a lot to compare with except my home built 6’5 x 23.5 x 115 ltr dw board which works well.
Must say I really like the 7’3, the extra length seems to improve ease of paddling straight and helps avoid nose or tail dipping during paddle ups. Flat rocker line and a canoe style nose/tail makes it glide really well through the water and release is effortless during pop up.
Surprisingly the 7’3 doubles up as a very nice sup-foil wave board for mushy Swedish surf and also super fun to use on solo wing downwinders, the added length & volume allowing to use 1-1.5 m2 smaller wing and gets up on foil in ridiculously little wind.
Riding it mostly on Axis ART 1099, 75 cm all mast and 350p tail, I’m 78kg.
Love the direction of these new boards and my next DIY board project will fore sure take some learnings from this one.
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@Swellchaser I’m very interested in one of these, can you compare the release to your DIY when popping up or on touch downs? Wondering how the soft rails throughout compare to the chines on other boards. (sounds like it releases really well, can you elaborate on your other experience)
Also how do you find the width or have you paddled anything narrower? I found the Axis hybrid at 24" maybe a bit slower than the 21" board, I am wary of anything wider than 21"
@Matt some notes from the last few months spent on the 7’3 x 21.5 Appletree and 6’5 x 23.5 DIY board.
Board length
Comparing the two I’d say the added length / waterline and reduced width makes the biggest difference. The 7’3 is a bit easier to paddle onto small bumps as it’s faster to accelerate when paddling and slightly easier to paddle straight. My 6’5 is more prone to yawing left/rigth with each paddle stroke and adding length seem to reduce this issue.
Bottom shape
The Appletree is has soft rounded rails front to back with a canoe style tail similar to Gong’s DW board, while my 6’5 is a Kalama E3 inspired shape with chopped tail and prominent chimes ending with a deep V. Coming from a long background in wind- & kitesurfing I always believed that well defined water release edges were important in all boards and thought this applied also to foil boards.
I’ve recently come to think about this differently through since a foil board is not actually reaching planing speeds before the foil lifts it up over the water. I believe that the canoe style displacement hulls, rather than planing hulls, are more suitable for foilboards as they seem to be more efficient in displacing water up to certain speeds. This might help releasing the board up on foil more effectively.
Width vs stability
Going narrower does not seem to have a huge effect on stability. I believe the foil does the main job here, the bigger and wider foil underneath, the more stability you seem to get when paddling. Adding length also adds stability in reducing nose/tail dipping as well as yaw while paddling, and staying balanced when paddling is key otherwise it’s very hard to transform any power from your paddle strokes into forward propulsion.
Volume vs stability
Appletree is 109 ltr and the 6’5 is 115, so not a huge difference, but I don’t think that volume is the largest contributor to stability. It likely has an affect in terms of how high the board floats and how much effort it takes from there up to foil, but believe that just enough floatation is enough. I’m 79 kg so the Appletree is +30 ltr (+38%) from my weight in kg which feels good. I’m yet to try more boards of different volume though before knowing where my sweetspot is in volume.
A few images below so you can see the difference in shape
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This is great commentary given that you’ve tried both types of hull shapes first hand. Very interesting that you don’t seem to feel any reduced efficiency in the release of the displacement hull.
I believe the reason for the hard chine flat bottom batracuda shape has more to do with releasing from the water as you pump onto foil, and less to do with speed or planing (conventional wisdom would say that the displacement hull would be faster to accelerate). It’s all about compromising between acceleration speed and release, but maybe release is less important than we think and the added speed of the displacement hull is more important in getting onto foil.
Perhaps if the board has enough positive volume the stickiness of the displacement hull isn’t a factor? Wonder whether you would draw the same conclusions on these two boards if they were closer to volume neutral?
Care to share the changes you would make with your next board?
Thanks!
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Thanks that is very interesting! I think you’ve maybe missed the consideration for at speed touchdowns. I’ve been riding a DIY board with hard chines that looks very similar to your DIY. While I haven’t managed to compare an equivalently rounded bottom board, I can say that the super long rail line seems to manage touchdowns pretty well, but occasionally I can feel that hard long line stick to the water if I hit the water at an angle (winging or prone). I wonder if the canoe bottom will re-attach differently at speed, better or worse? I think the chines differ depending on the roll angle the board touches down.
Edit: some info from the other thread, @Beasho do you have any more info on chine/round consideration? My experience as a very poor winger is that the square edges only were an issue winging, and sometimes in prone when a wave caught at an awkward angle.
Now that I’ve tried 2 boards and hopefully an Apple skipper soon, I will say that weight is a factor that may start to matter to me as the whole point is to enjoy riding the thing once you are up (and durability so will avoid the poor reputations).
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What is the board weight on the Appletree skipper?? I like the idea of a strong and durable downwind board. Appletree seems to be best for strength to weight option available. For me I like to stick to proven shapes that I know have solid R&D. I’ve only used Sunova Aviators or Kalama E3. If I could get these board shapes built in appletree tech it would be the ultimate forever board IMO.
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Borrowed a friend’s Appletree 7’7 x 22.5 x 119 the other day to see what an additional 4’’ and 10 ltr over my 7’3 x 21.5 x 109ltr will do to easy of catching bumps and flat water paddle upp practice.
The 7’7 was noticeably more stable to stand on and while I still couldn’t flat water paddle it up, I did manage to catch a very small unbroken bump and ride away (was on Axis 1150 / 460 and 75 cm mast). I would have struggled to do this on my 7’3.
Being more stable platform the 7’7 made the paddling and power transfer easier which is good for learning I guess, but it seemed like it had a bit more drag in the water (maybe the extra width) and felt quite a lot bigger when up on foil. Now I only have one short session on the 7’7 to compare but still think I’d prefer the 7’3 as I’m comfortable catching fairly small bumps on it and it feels more nimble up on foil (I’m 79 kg, my buddy around 90).
@Matt to your point on touchdowns I haven’t experienced a huge difference between my DIY sup with bottom chines at the tail vs the more rounded shape of Appletree. They both seem hit the surface and bounce back up quite well, no big difference if you hit it flat or at an angle. Both boards have very rounded rails in the nose though, so only the tail area differs in shape.
I also ride an Appltree 5’2 x 22.5 Skipper Wing with the same rounded bottom shape as the DW boards, and I can say comparing that board to my previous wing board, a Fanatic Sky Wing 5’0 x 23.5 which had flat bottom and boxy rails, the Appletree is way smoother at handling touchdowns. The Fanatic had much more of a tendency to suck to the surface if you hit it flat, while the Appletree with its rounded shape feels much more forgiving at touchdown and just wants to bounce back up.
@Velocicraptor on stickyness I feel that either of the shapes release well from the water when you hit foil takeoff speed (which isn’t that high), so not sure how much of a factor the release edges vs displacement hull has there. Maybe the shape that is most efficient gliding trough the water up to that speed is of more importance, not sure.
Next DIY board I’d be interested in trying a displacement hull / canoe shape bottom, length around 7’-7’3, going a little narrower, maybe 19-20’ and see if I can make the board super light. The Appletrees aren’t heavy but not super light either. I do believe weight plays a role at takeoff, pumping efficiency and overall handling / manoeuvrability.
@baldy123 will get a scale out to weigh the boards today.
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Just checked the weights:
Appletree 7’3 x 21,5 x 109 ltr - Just over 7 kg
Appletree 7’7 x 22,5 x 119 ltr - 7,4 kg
My own DIY 6’5 x 23,5 x 115 ltr - 6 kg
Surprised by how much lighter my DIY board was knowing I beefed it up a good bit on the deck. Could probably shave off 0,5 kg and make a 5,5 kg dw board next time 
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Last weekend I rode the 89L Appletree pre-production demo 6’7” x 19.5” x 4.9 at 73~kg dry and really was stoked to manage to catch a few waves on it. The conditions were very good relatively glassy head high prone long period waves so not really at all optimal testing, and caught much more waves prone with the paddle under the chest and then an awkward pop up but managed 5-10 sup paddle in waves on the inside waves.
First impressions, compared with the hybrid Axis 6’4x24 and a DIY 6’5x21:
The volume is slightly more central than the boards I’ve ridden so a few nose dives initially, but once balanced it paddled well enough to catch waves.
The rails are also more parallel than the hybrid boards I’ve been riding and this greatly assisted with tracking, combined with the very accentuated tail I felt like it was the easiest to paddle straight off the boards I’ve ridden.
Once up on foil, it is very solid, easy links into waves and perfectly balanced efficient pumping. Touchdowns and liftoff I would say are normal and predictable, I wouldn’t be able to judge based on only the one session how it compares to a harder chime tail. I moved the foil around in the long boxes and found a good balance near the front.
Downside for me is at that volume I couldn’t really get good paddling momentum going for earlier takeoffs, and definitely think that 89L while fine for balancing isn’t great for getting in early at my skill level. I would have tried the 109L but that looked much too big and by then I also started to feel like I’d overdone it with poor paddle technique over the last month. Something to be careful of.
I think I will make another DIY board around 7’3” with now narrower around ~19” and aim for 100L and then use that as a basis for buying a production board. The Appletree construction looks super durable and I definitely would want one for the slower part of the progression curve, but currently too many questions to commit.
Learning from all of this for me is to make the effort to try as many varying boards as possible. and put some time into SUP in flat and waves if you don’t have downwind as I’m more confident in board handling abilities ahead of the summer when conditions will start to be viable for downwind. Standing and paddling has been easier than I expected, but definitely a good 10 sessions to get to comfortably catching waves.
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Go 18” wide. Your foil is providing the side to side stability. 18 gets up easier than 19 and the stability will be the same.
Ive got one of the Appletree Skipper DW Wides on order for a downwind / lightwind oriented wing board. 5’7, 21"w, 80L. Super stoked to try it out. Figure I can downwind with at least 1 size smaller wing (maybe 1.5-2m) vs my 60L daily driver board.
No intention of paddling it up.
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