Starting a thread to list my observations, and solicit discussion. I do still need more time directly comparing the two.
At 200lbs+SUP+wetsuit, I have really enjoyed the 1201 for gliding on really small swell. Mostly riding point and beach break waves but more recently downwinding in small conditions as well.
The 1075R surfs a lot better - more direct feel as compared with the 1201 “flexy” delayed feeling in turns. The 1201 feels a bit like riding on a flexy mast used to feel.
However, the 1075R has pretty poor low speed performance in my opinion. Plenty of lift even at very slow speeds. BUT - the issue is that it really isn’t very efficient at all. It gets smooth with good glide at higher speeds, but at the low speeds it is really draggy. The magic of the 1201 for me is that it has both low speed AND is efficient at that slow speed. Maybe a little more draggy at high speed, but I’m not riding it for high speed anyway.
Additionally on small swell, while it can make tight surfy turns, it drops down on the mast throughout the turn because it has so much drag. I found myself just wishing for the 860 and keep the speed up a bit being the better tradeoff.
So far, for me I’m keeping my 1201 and unless I discover something new in further back to back testing, I’ll probably sell the 1075
There were some questions on which code tails work well with 1075R on a recent coach casey discussion. For lower speed conditions, one suggestion was the 142 tail with a -0.5 shim. Not sure if you have that in your quiver, but at least wanted to share the suggestion
I tried the 1130S and it is pretty draggy (much more than 1075) I expect the 1300 even more. That said, at low speeds might actually be less draggy than the 1075.
At the end of the day what I’m after is pumping efficiency for those downwinders with a lot of pumping. The peak efficiency point needs to match the speed of the swell decently well. If I’m going slow on a swell and peel off to pump to the next one, I can’t afford a wing with a lot of drag at that speed.
The 1201 has excellent efficiency at slow speed, unmatched in any other foil I’ve tried. The 1075 or 1130 doesn’t.
For faster speeds, the 860 is more efficient as long as that speed is maintained.
Interesting… I have all the S and almost all the R wings and have been testing then in prone. I started on the 980/850 and found the 980 the perfect wing for prone, coming from the 1201 which I was mainly on before. Later I’ve gotten the 1130/1300. And i could link more waves because of the lower stall speed, but I did feel I was losing out in overall effiency as it took more effort overall despite the lower stall. Then I went from the 1300 to the 1075 and instantly felt the +50% better efficiency in pumping albeit a slightly higher stall speed. Then I went to the 770r and surprisingly I’m on foil for longer on that vs the 1075. I can only attribute that to the 770 being more efficient in covering distance with not a huge difference in stall speed. Definitely the 1075 is not nearly as efficient as the 770. Going back to the 980 vs the 770, again I can feel the 770 pumps 2x as easily (but I lose rippability). Now I’ve started on the 680 and trying to make that my primary prone wing as it turns way better and pumps way more efficient vs the 980.
Bottom line though is that I always expected the code magic to scale through the bigger sizes. It makes no sense that I can stay on foil linking waves longer on the 770 vs the 1075. U would think that if I can do 2 min on the 770, it should be 4 or 6 on the 1075. Maybe there is a sweet spot for the code magic and it is in the middle of the range and simply scaling up without re engineering the design you lose some of the magic. I don’t really know, but I don’t use the 1201 anymore, but after what you say it would be interesting to have another session on that and see how it feels.
Hmm… I’m pretty sure I can pump longer duration on the 1075 vs the smaller R sizes, it’s just that to cover distance from point a to point b, it’s less effort overall on the smaller R. Given how low the stall speeds are on the 860/770, they are still very easy to pump which results it being less effort overall. I was hoping for a way lower stall speed on the 1075, but it’s not a huge difference, which is the reason why code still needs to make an R that has the same stall speed as the 1201.
Interesting, I recently added a 1075 to my 860R/980S quiver. The first DW run on it, I thought the same thing, that it felt a bit draggier than expected sometimes. I felt like I could have finished the run on the 860R a bit easier even. On the 2nd run that same day, the wind dropped off a bit and the extra bottom end on the 1075 was much appreciated, definitely wouldn’t have had a dry run with 860 that time. I have tried the 960 2 runs as well, and it feels much closer to the 860 id say in terms of efficiency, just with more bottom end pump/“hold you up”. The 1075 is quite a bigger gap in speed range and feel id say.
Is there any comparison between the code foils and the Axis Spitfires? I’m assuming they would be more in line with the Code S line but haven’t gotten a chance to ride any code foils yet.
Direct comparing the 980S to the 900 Spitfire, for me the code has the edge in every way. Spitfire is a perfectly good surfing foil in waves with power, its a bit slow which can be good staying in the pocket of powerful wave.
Back to the original question of 1075r vs 1201, if you are downwinding with a gps, it would be interesting to know the approximate speeds you are finding the foils to work well for you?
From Code videos etc, I’ve seen them mention the following estimated speed ranges for a couple of their various R foils, measured in time (minutes:seconds) per kilometer
770R: 1:50 to 3:10
860R: 2:05 to 3:15
1075R: 2:20 to 3:30, with 2:20 estimated on the 120R tail, and 2:40s mentioned for the shimmed 142AR tail
I havent seen any speed range numbers for the 1201 apart from the 58km pumping record at 18.8km per hour, or about 3:10/km - i think the guy who did that said he tries to pump just faster than stall speed
I get pretty consistent 3:00 pace on the 1201, but honestly I think a difficult metric for the rest of us to give much value in, a heavier friend cruises at a similar speed on a slower foil than me, and I only pull away when I start putting in much more effort. The bumps dictate the pace to a large extent.
Here are recent “Best speed 500 m” stats from waterspeed, with the pace all around 3:00, so maybe that is my top average pace and speed. Same run, wind varied, wind bumps only. 45 skinny tail with 0.25 shim.
10kn: 19.6 km/h 3:04
15kn: 20.7 km/h 2:54
20kn: 21.4 km/h 2:48
Interesting that you are seemingly so much faster. My fastest 500m was definitely way beyond the comfort zone of the 1201, working quite hard to manage speed, and I probably won’t ride it again in anything above 12kn conditions.
Are you liking the 680r in the surf over the 980/770? I have 1075, 860 and most of the S series as well, but I want to add 770 or 680 for the efficiency.
770 downwinding in 10/10 conditions at hood was probably my favorite feels on foil to date, and would love to get it in the surf. Just thinking it is pretty close to the 860 in size so was curious about the 680 strictly for prone in decent waves, but I’m 90kg/200lbs so was worried about bottom end
The 770 is a way more user friendly wing to start with. Comparing with the 980, the 770 can pump twice as good. 25% more effort to pump, but feels like you’re covering the distance in half the time, resulting in way more waves connected. Turning not as smooth, but I have yet to try it with the 142 which may make it as good.
The 680 has a noticeably higher stall speed, but I was still able to link at least one wave on my first time using it. So still surpringly user friendly considering its code foils. And I’m not a pro. On my old axis spitfire, I was linking one wave per 6 months. Linking about 2 waves per run on the 980 on average, doubling that on the 770, and back to 1-2 on the 680 because I am still unstable and getting used to it.
Huge intel, thanks so much. I really actually like the 860r in the surf but now pretty much just ride the S series, but I’m thinking I may fire up a 770r for decent surf. The glide is so nice and would probably be able to push hard through turns anyways at my weight, thank you for this intel.
Side note, half degree shim on the ar tails really sped them up, made turns a little looser/more pivoty, which I know is the gen consensus. This morning I did a half degree shim on the 135r with 1075/med fuse in knee high sup bumps and definitely reduced the drag, physicality of the pump. Loosened up turns as well and felt pretty good
thanks for chiming in with real numbers. I agree that the 1201 gets pretty hairy when conditions allow for faster speeds. It is just too floppy in my opinion. But I wouldn’t really want to be on the 1075 for those conditions either because a smaller foil would be totally workable.
So here is a recent yotube clip from James Casey talking about (starting @ roughly 3:18) recently testing a big foil protype with an intended average speed of 14 km / hr (4:15 per km) for foiling in close to no-wind conditions. Sounds like the Code team is maybe thinking to add a foil bigger/slower than the 1075R / 1300s ?
