Prone pop-up and initial drop

Prone Surf Foiling
41

Yup, same scenario. It’s been months. Started on borrowed 200HA and then a 170. Though less so on the 170, in both cases I felt like I was fighting that bucking the entire time. I’m surprised it was happening on the 150 for you. Seems like similar area to your Code 980.

Beginner gear is so confusing. Many companies advertise their gear is designed for beginners having huge surface area even though many people here recommend much smaller wings for learning. Also, AR seems all over the place with recommendations. I would be scared away from the AR on your Code but you’ve already vouched that it’s plenty stable and I know there’s other HA wings that are highly recommended to beginners here.

1 Like
42

I’d convinced myself that just couldn’t do it on the lift gear, and that proning wasnt for me, and the difference when I switched to code was night and day. It really was a gear issue which I’d suspected all along. Something about code allows the foil to engage in a very controlled manner as you pop up. A lot more to foil design than just area and AR. Wouldn’t pretend to fully understand but their gear just works for me. Obviously there are many who love lift foils but they really held me back - tried 120/150hax/170/200ha. The challenge as a beginner is figuring out which gear is right for you. An expensive and frustrating endeavour…but worth persevering with

43

Well that sucks haha. I definitely don’t have the bank account to support switching gear all the time. I’m gonna continue the grind and try to test other peoples stuff along the way. It can be nice living in a foil-rich area (until you see the lineup…)

44

I felt like I was struggling to hold my kujira1s down on takeoff but immediately found k2 was much more gentle. Later I borrowed a lift setup for one wave and was yelping the whole wave as I was in survival mode trying to stand all on my front foot.

45

Wow so happy I found this thread. I thought it was just me. I’m literally having the exact same issues. I’ve been scooting up far on the nose, doing my damndest to keep the thing down. When I do manage to keep it down on take off, the same exact weird turning with a mind of its own. I’m usually so caught off guard by this that I fail to rotate my trunk along with the turn and end up tacoing. When I’m not tacoing from phantom yaw turns (that then turn into rolls), I’m fighting to keep it down or having it keep climbing up the mast until breach.

If anyone can help me I’d be so grateful :pray:t3: Here’s all my details:

15+ years experience surfing short boards at punchy critical breaks. Would say I’m advanced intermediate surfer.

75kg (160lbs)
5’10” tall
About a month and a half of true prone experience.
Boards: I have two options but primarily ride a freedom foil techno2.0 at I think 4’2” and 34.4L. Other option is an infinity 5’4” without dims written on it but I’d guess in the 45-50L range.
I always ride with mast all the way back bc I thought that’s what you do as a beginner especially if the lift feels gnarly.
Foil gear: Axis 75cm Alu mast
Black ultrashort (640mm) advanced plus fuse
FW: Axis ARTv2 999 (1038cm2 total surface area)
Skinny 55 rear stab with a .5 negative shim (I think negative… whichever one is red and is supposed to reduce front foot pressure. I put this in with hopes it’d help chill this board out a little with the breaching and lift).

I’ve have maybe 3 successful rides with it where I felt in control and had that aha moment. These were always in very small waves at a river mouth in San Diego. It felt like on these waves that were successful, I was standing “strong” and really committed to putting some strength and pressure back into the board and just trusting it. This is scary to do given that 85% of the time one of the two issues the OP had is what happens to me, and I’ve had gnarly crashes from it. Most recently I went to San Clemente and surfed some waves with a little juice behind them. I agree completely about feeling like I’m just taking surf drops, but I can’t seem to get into waves unless there is considerable push. I have the same problem on the 5’4” infinity prone board. The river mouth is the only place near me that seems to occasionally have weak enough waves that I don’t get manhandled. I’m deliberate in my pop up and usually trying to not engage lift at all. I’ve pumped the board a handful of times and it seems like all I have to do is lightly tap in order to get speed and glide.

I was thinking I just need so much finesse it’s crazy, but after reading this thread I’m wondering if something else is going on. I see people around me on the same board with different foils and seemingly able to swing about wildly at times without having the same insta-launch or phantom steering issues.

Forgot to mention I do also have a DW SUP board bc I’m also trying to learn to downwind (aka learning to stand on the board without immediately fallling off).

The part in this thread about moving the mast forward has me thinking maybe I’ll play with that. When I balanced up the board I seem to recall my nose pointing towards the ground a bit.

If my kit is just no good, can you recommend other axis gear to try? I was looking into the spitfire since I’ve read that high aspect is hard to learn on. But honestly for now I just want to stand up, go straight, and make very very gradual turns and then pump in flat water. I get so few opportunities to be on foil that actually surfing the wave is so secondary to me at the moment. I’d love to just be able to reliably stand up, peel off the wave, then practice pumping straight out to sea as long as I can.

Please help!

46

I’m not 100% sure this will help you, but it was the key for me.

I think that the foils systems are designed around a certain rider weight, and lighter riders end up on a bucking bronco when prone starting due to the wide speed range in short time. By being too light for the designed tune you’ll end up needing to be farther out in front of the mast to counter the lift from the stab, and as those lever arms get longer things get super twitchy.

My suggestion is to run more shim in the stab and try to take out some of that lift. I’m not sure which way to shim for that in an Axis system, but you want to reduce lift in the stab so the board flys level for your weight at all speeds.

I’m not sure it will help you, but as a lightweight rider it made an enormous difference for me and I’ve never heard anyone talk about shims in relation to rider weight. It’s always been pitched to me as something you change as you advance in skill, but I think there’s a large component of tuning to weight that hasn’t been discussed much.

Give a bigger shim a try and see how it goes.

On another note, when I was messing with that stuff and prior to figuring out the above, I used base plate shims to raise my nose up which did help tame things, so that might be something to try later on if you still are feeling nose down. It helped me a lot but now that I’ve figured out my tune I don’t use the baseplate shim any longer.

1 Like
47

I’m glad I wasn’t the only one. I’ve had a little success since I started this post, but it’s probably not going to be of much help because it sounds like you’re already doing a lot right. I might as well provide an update though. Here’s the gear I had a chance to try and the outcomes.

  • Original Board: Lift 4’4" x 21.5 44L Wing Board

  • Lift 200 HA: Bucking bronco, no success.

  • Lift 170: Phantom turns and taco machine

  • Lift 150 Surf v2: Less bucking and still phantom turns.

Here’s where things started changing for the better.

  • Chopped Progression 170, 75cm aluminum mast, short aluminum fuse, shank 14 stab. The 170 has a span of 822mm. Not sure about the AR. I’ve dubbed it the Pyper.

Instant improvement. Nothing miraculous, but up and riding straight, zero bucking even with the short fuse. No phantom yaw turns whatsoever.

  • Medium aluminum fuse: Even more stable now, which is nice.

Here’s where I had some major improvement in wave count, time on foil, and overall enjoyment.

  • Board Change: Quiver Killer 5’2 x 19" 45L: This is the single most important purchase I’ve made so far. I avoided buying a mid-length for the longest time because they’re only really available new right now, but so worth it. It doesn’t handle white wash take-offs as well, but the ability to paddle into almost unbreaking waves is worth the trade.

I heard Erik say on the podcast that this board is like having camera stabilization and I agree. More time to realize what’s happening. More time to react and make adjustments. My wave count is through the roof. I can also get into smaller, wimpier waves so easily now which are a guaranteed good time.

Oddly enough pumping seems to feel the most natural out of everything though I’m probably doing a lot of it unnecessarily and getting out in front of the wave just because I like how it feels.

I’ve just found a new challenge though. Probably because this board is so efficient at paddling, getting into anything thigh high or bigger feels like I’m going blazing fast down the drop. I have to burn off most of my speed riding prone with my feet used as flaps before I can even pop up and sometimes loose too much power to pop up. Again, totally worth the trade though.

2 Likes
48

ART is kind of a tricky foil to prone surf. The skinny stab isn’t easy either. You’ve working with a very pitch sensitive setup.

See if you can find a old used BSC wing. Shouldn’t be too expensive or difficult in socal.

1 Like
49

I was going to say this also^ Its not an ideal beginner wing at all. Used BSC or PNG wing should be cheap to find and easier to learn with. Also, honestly, all this talk about gear - your problem is most likely that prone foiling is a very hard sport to learn. It’s probably not your gear and you just need to keep practicing.

50

Yeah mostly “it’s not the gear just keep practicing” is the right advice but he’s got a very difficult setup.

51

Same, the ART 999 V2 is a nice setup but probably not for learning, but it will have glide and speed.

A BSC 810 or 890 would be good if you want to save some money.
Otherwise, the Spitfire 840 or 900. I am 185 lbs and have been using the Spitfire 780 in waist to shoulder high waves and the 840 when is smaller. The 900 or 960 would be good but the smaller foil has helped with less lift in the beginning.

52

#1 tip that helped me when learning was to take my time standing up. It’s not like surfing where you have to stand up right away. Also I would take the shim out of the tail and figure it out that way before messing with it .

53

I feel like I’m the only one person who struggles with this. I see guys regularly put one foot in place at a time and shimmy things a little bit if it feels off before standing up. Seems to work great. For the life of my I can not do this at all. I can ride prone off-foil, drag my feet a little to burn off excess power until things feel stable, but if I take my time after that I’ve wasted too much energy to pop-up slowly. I wish somebody would put out a video on slow pop-up technique because I find it counter-intuitive.

Instead I’ve just been trying to burn off any unsafe speed then pop-up fast. About half the time I miss my footing. That sets me up for failure and look like I have no idea what I’m doing. The other half I’m getting long controlled rides down the line wondering why I ever found it difficult. The inconsistency of it is pretty frustrating.

54

I think this was posted before, but I feel like it shows the slower pop-up.

Also, this is the longer video that has some good stuff in it.

55

I’m confused. While these are two of the most helpful videos I’ve seen, neither seems to cover slow popup technique at all. The narrator actually says in both videos to pop-up as fast as possible. Even though I see tons of guys do very slow, calculated pop-ups, I have to agree with her. I have a small window during the actual pop-up where I have to maintain the correct speed to not come up on foil yet, but also not loose too much of my current speed, forcing me do do it very fast. Also, any turbulence on the wave makes me me even less likely to slow down while I’m juggling everything.

The rest of the stuff in the “How to Pump Up the Foil” video came naturally and riding down the line isn’t too bad as long as my feet hit the right spot.

Thanks for the suggestion though. These are great videos that I’ll continue to rewatch.

56

I think you just lack the feeling for what is just right. Watch this clip of AB doing the jetfoil thing, note the pause just as he is about to popup, just feeling out the speed (in his case keeping the jet in the water). Watch the videos above again and note the slight hesitation at that point. Play with extending that pause. You can also keep your hands on the board longer, like this.

ie:
Practice pausing with your arms extended
CleanShot 2024-09-12 at 12.48.30

Practice pausing with your back foot on the board and hands still gripping rails

CleanShot 2024-09-12 at 12.48.41
CleanShot 2024-09-12 at 12.48.41786×468 28.5 KB

Basically pausing after changing you change your weight and before you change it again

57

You can stand in that tripod stance for a long time while dragging your front foot to control your speed. Well, other people can. I can’t do that. But I know lot of guys that foil beach breaks that do that take off every time. They wait until they are out in front in the flats going the speed they like. Then put their front foot on the board.

3 Likes
58

Thanks Matt for the good pics. I feel that I can take my time standing up in smooth/clean waves, and I struggle being able to take my time if it is choppy or when there backwash waves.

When I started prone, it was mainly in choppy/backwash waves, and I had no success. I then got into some sooth/clean waves and immediately had success, not that it is totally consistent. I have also started practicing pausing a second when standing up on my shortboard. I think it helps to go through it in my mind and then practice each time I go out.

I watched the How to Pump Up the Foil, short video, again and agree many of the popups are pretty quick. I do think the time 1:43 and time 2:57 are maybe a little slower.

1 Like
59

This clip was really helpful. This is what I see guys doing and they can delay really long. I’m gonna try to mimic this clip and see what I can get out of it.

Yeah I saw a couple guys a while back really dragging their front leg to eat speed and take their time. They were definitely beginners but even with some fumbling they consistently nailed their foot position.

Agreed. I’ve heard it mentioned before for beginners, but I feel like it can’t be emphasized enough that the right conditions can make learning much much easier. The first couple spots I was recommended had too much power or too much turbulence and I struggled hard. Finally found the right mushy spot with no backwash and I’m making progress. Better foilers can make due with much less, but starting out, it made things miserable for me.

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60

I disagree. The right gear is so so important for learning to prone. Unlike winging where basically anything works.