I think so. Evo surf. Mine with the afs is about 77-78cm.
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I donāt think my review is negative, I just pointed out my personal experience and things I didnāt like. Mainly didnāt think the severe decrease in my ability to pump it for improved turn radius was a worthwhile tradeoff. Didnāt say it was a bad foil, just wasnāt for me. Probably a lot better for wingers or Foil drivers than prone. On the Cedrus Evolution 75. And yeah, I am probably in the minority on this.
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I agree that the Silk can be hard to pump is not tuned properly.
No clue with the Cedrus Mast, but with the AFS mast, going with 1Ā° nose down helps a lot.
Silk HA tails helps but you sacrifice turning.
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Iāve been told that silk is infinitely superior to k2, but same aspect ratio and sweep etc., and the tails seem very close with the most aft loading section Iāve ever seen in a tail. I found my k2s would sometimes drop out when pumping like a V1 ART, but that almost went away when I switched to marlin14 after tapping new holes. Even though the silk HA tails share that possibly dubious aft loading section(for tails only, not front wings like kt), Iāve not noticed a difference in performance btwn the ha40 and kd race when used with enduros. So maybe the k2/silk(?) shape does need some help. Unfortunately Iāve lent my k2s to a better foiler and of course he thought they were great, so donāt listen to me.
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Did you see that review?
Iām only on wing with the Silks and loving it for easy, stable Foiling, especially in waves, white water. Prone and connecting distances might be a bit different, but Hadous Video-Review was also not bad for that.
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A couple friends and I use it for wing as well and love it, even with 3rd party tails, so something seems off.
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Thanks for the detailed response, appreciate the different POV.
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I came from the Progression to the silk and slow and draggy is the opposite of what I felt. I thought the progressions (particularly the 140) felt very slow and draggy and the silk felt a lot faster and smoother. Agree that itās definitely harder to pump than the progression and the progression felt very controlled vs the silk which responds much quicker. Definitely benefitted in my progression from the progression but the silk just feels next level in all respects if you can get over the pump.
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Weird, if I get a chance to try it out again I definitely will, maybe on the AFS mast.
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Just to clarify we had some issues reported with an AFS rider, but they were not related to drag/speed/glide. In fact average speeds posted with Evolution Surf were actually a tad higher, but within the noise. There were some vibrations reported that we believe were eliminated after we refinished the mast, as the new owner of that mast is happily riding it with AFS, Uni, and KT. AFS makes a great mast (and foils) for sure. And honestly when reverse engineering the connection, we were super impressed with the quality of their products. But Cedrus owners as far as we know are happy with the performance of the foils on their mast, and we welcome any and all feedback to share.
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Yeah try it off of the Cedrus mast for at least a couple sessions if you get the chance. I really like the 80cm UHM but Iāve heard great things about the 75cm and 85cm as well. I know a guy with the Silk 850 and the crazy cheap $529 HR mast from them. He says itās the best foil heās ever ridden.
I ride my Silk with the UHM 80 mast + chopped uni stab and it feels like butter. Have a Silk HA 38 stab on the way and excited to see how that compares.
The P140/125 were my daily drivers beforehand and absolutely are better at pumping and excel in less powerful waves. But the second there is enough power for the 850, there is nothing Iād rather be on. Iām now bringing the enduro 900 + silk 850 on every trip - the enduro compliments it perfectly.
If you get a chance to take the silk to a long point break, highly highly recommend it. So fun ripping turns for 500M+ and then just walking the beach back to the point.
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I think possibly the feeling I have had on the 850 that I could imagine explaining the feeling you described is because you were riding too slow. If the waves donāt have the energy to get you up to a higher speed than you are used to, and you donāt aggressively keep the foil moving fast then it isnāt happy. Almost the exact opposite of the progression line.
Iāve been on a silk 850 for 3 weeks (10-15 prone sessions in good +10s period conditions, and last two days in perfect foil waves) and Iām considering a full review of the UHM and the ultra 750.
Iāve found the 850 to be mostly as described on this thread, in my words:
- very fast but able to slow down through turns and kill speed, turns are super smooth and predictable
- the pump is very different, but a few sessions on the ha38 tail to figure it out and then back to the silk 142 and now find it easy enough for the size, best in clean conditions. I also had 0.5 + baseplate shim at the start, now removed. I felt like more aggressive pump was needed/rewarded initially. It is also quite nuanced.
- likes to go fast, foil section feels optimised for higher end of range. In big powerful surf Iāve managed some big drops that I have been amazed to make, it is so smooth and stable when absolutely at the speed limit. Similar to the Ultra 750
- breaches are smooth if going fast, pretty standard now, but for the MA shape maybe better than Iāve experienced. I did have a turn where the flow stayed detached for a while before falling which was interesting
- not strictly relevant, but the mast and connection system is extremely solid and satisfying
I donāt really think they are good beginner prone foils (or need to be upsized) as they feel uncompromisingly designed to attack waves. To me, it feels like a jump compared to anything Iāve ridden, but with much more nuance and performance. This I think comes from the foil section, which feels tuned to go fast, and is not at all lifty, when you are going slow, it rapidly drops, the exact opposite of the 140. I just had a session in smaller waves and it required a big burst of energy to get it up to speed off the back of a weak wave. This would explain why winging isnāt an issue as you have power.
My impression is that with both the silk and the ultra, they are quite aggresive in the design, high performance. I feel like I understand the design of the Enduro as more balanced approach.
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1000% agree with this.
Iāve taken the Silk 850 out before and immediately felt āNope. Not enough power.ā and went to the beach to swap out for the enduro 900. It is not a fun wing in small gutless surf.
My new rule of thumb is that if I need to pump the 850 at all to generate enough speed to stay on the wave, itās time to put on the enduro.
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Thanks for all the feedback!
I just wanna say that the Cedrus Evolution is not a problem, its a great mast and a bad mast would not result in the complaints I made either way. Itās possible that as @Matt and @TheFoilKook said I didnāt take the Silk out on the right days for it and got a bad impression. Itās also possible that one person just doesnāt like a wing many of you like.
The thing that really turned me off, again, was how bad the pump/glide was for just 3 CM less span than the Unifoil Progression and Code 850S, and how high its stall speed was. If Iām going to have a session where Iām not attempting to connect and trading off pump for maneuverability, Iām going to the Havoc at 74 CM span instead of Silk at 87 CM.
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I think possibly indexing too hard on the span numbers here
Reiterate that in waves with power is when the silk goes well (this is different to manoeuvrability), as said below, Prog foils are ultimate grovelers, I would say that Silk feels like a high performance shortboard designed for good waves. I donāt know how to explain that in any other way.
I had another session in good conditions and I think the key insight is that it is high performance and so sensitive to trim, you need to be able to move your feet around, and you need to have high sensitivity to the feedback you are getting from the foil, but when it clicks into place, it is incredibly agile, fast and smooth (and efficient - though I am in warm water, I hope this translates to cold water!).
Regarding the pump/glide, I also did a shore run chip in to test, and now that things are dialled in, it was surprisingly easy to lock into weak bumps. I wasnāt really expecting to downwind this foil very much, but now very keen to try it in powered carvy conditions.
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Agree the pump on the code is infinitely better than the silks. The k2 is not infinitely worse either, just a cheaper less stiff setup that needs a better mast. For wave towing the silks are pretty much the best. A m2o winner told me he also thought the barnacles is just a gimmick and creates drag (this is probably true since no one else uses barnacles). The only time I used the code S instead of the silk for towing is in conditions where I have to pump to stay on the wave. In that case you either have to go with a bigger silk or with a higher aspect wing like the S. Also in conditions where I have to pump to stay on the wave with the S, I just go with the R instead. But if conditions are perfect and you donāt need to pump, probably always prefer the silk.
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Youāve said this at least a couple of times now and so I feel compelled to respond. Your m2o winner is clearly an exceptional athlete and not a hydrodynamicist, which is no surprise. Tubercles are not a gimmick, their function, advantages, and disadvantages are quit well understood in the literature. A quick search about tubercles on google scholar will confirm my assertion.
That said, introducing tubercles to a foil design adds a great many additional design parameters (size, shape, number, and placement to name a few) so getting the design to perform at itās intended role is not at all trivial, which means expensive and time consuming. They are few and far in between, but watch some videos with Laurent, the Kujira and Silk designer, sometime. Many years and many many many prototypes to get to where they are today. A cost many brands are apparently unable or unwilling to bear, in other words. Kane also said in a video awhile ago, pre KT I believe, that he really liked what the Kujiras can do, but wanted to respect the work that had gone into creating them and not copy the tubercle design. Perhaps there are other designer out there who feel the same.
Not saying tubercles are the be all end all and all foils should converge to that corner of the design space. But, used in conjunction with the right traditional foil design parameters (section, planform, washout, etc), foils with tubercles can excel in certain corners of the design space, as we see with the Silks.
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Tubercles are the hydrodynamic version of vortex generators on an airplane. They change the laminar flow from a singular sheet to a series of channels. Nearly all planes have VGās because they help with low end performance by delaying flow separation and in our case they have the added benefit of preventing ventilation from spreading towards the root of the wing.
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Surely for racing and SUPER TOP HIGH END NO COMPROMISE PRO performance the tubercles are not the way to go ā¦ But for increased range and TOP NOTCH smoothness SILKs & ENDUROs are top of race. Everytime I test another foil I can confirm this. Guess I need to test code and KT to reconfirm this.
Hoping to get soon the ULTRA, letās see how that goes for ultra gliding in downwinds, it seems like itās not gonna be an M2O winner, but my expectations are that itāll let me go faster (in average whole speed) and with less effort as I am a mere average mortal.
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