I like the tubercles. I think they look cool and TBH I’ve never experienced performance like them on any other foil. As someone who’s also worked with engineers installing various upgraded VGs on wind turbine blades I don’t think of them as gimmicky at all. I’ve also talked to the manufacturer directly and yes, making foils with tubercles is harder than making them without.
As for the Silk foils:
I’ve ridden the whole quiver extensively and would say the 650 and 850 demand speed and power. I specifically did not care for the 850 with the 142 tail. When I put the 132 tail on it I fell in love. The pump is technical and took time to understand but once unlocked it was sufficient for my riding. It won’t compare to the progressions as a groveler though, it’s a speed and power foil.
For mast choices: I’m possibly the only person in the world that will ever actually ride the entire Silk lineup on the Cedrus Evolution mast, AFS 80cm UHM, and AFS 75cm UHM this extensively. I put in 1500+ miles on 100+ sessions split roughly evenly between those masts and ran all the data.
The AFS 75cm is the fastest with the AFS 80cm being in second place.
For the Silk 850:
The 80cm UHM was 11% faster.
The 75cm UHM was 16% faster.
The AFS masts with the larger Silk 1050 maintained higher average speeds than the Cedrus mast with the smaller Silk 850 at 4% and 9% faster respectively.
That’s helpful to have your feedback and experience. Can you talk a bit more about the Cedrus Evo Surf vs stock AFS masts. Any other pros and cons other thank speed for the Cedrus? Thanks
No, I’m not comfortable sharing anything other than data here when it comes to that topic. My experiences and opinions on that are shared in my review which you can find on my site which is just my user name .com If you have questions you can DM me.
I just wanted to share my data related to the speed comments posted by others and say that the AFS foils I own and have tested (Silk, Ultra, Enduro) are incredible and clearly at their best in every metric that matters to me when used with AFS masts.
Nah, it’s sketchy to share Cedrus stuff here unless it’s positive. Scrounge around and you’ll find other conflicts that don’t involve me. I only came back to correct his comments about Evolution being faster than AFS (he was referencing me in that comment). It’s quite basic really. A 19mm thick mast will not be faster than a 13.8 or 12.8. There’s no voodoo here, it’s just thickness. It’s a bit silly to think otherwise and get upset over it.
I’ll also correct that no, I wasn’t removed from this forum. The last time I spoke up the email threats, posts about conspiracy theories against cedrus, the attacks on my mental health were too much for me. I specifically asked for all of my content to be removed from this site. It’s a shame, everyone sees this stuff and it suppresses conversations about these things. The one positive that came from it is that when all those attacks came I was also dm’d with a bunch of support from others who have been through the same thing and they were able to help me identify the problems with my mast and understand that the way I’ve been treated here isn’t unique to me.
Anyway, I have no intention of sticking around. Kyle admitted to the issues with my mast. The Cedrus website was updated to reflect my findings of ventilation and flow separation issues with the Evolution mast. Nothing I said was a lie. He did not have the data on speed when he made his comment. So, I fixed it so no one is misled. The AFS masts are unbelievable, masterpieces really. It’s nonsense to think that a universal mast will be better than every single other mast on the market nor do I think anyone should expect it to.
One could say that referencing the thickness of the Cedrus classic in a discussion about Cedrus Evo could be called Voodoo.
I ride afs enduro on (total)87 and 77 Evo masts and think they are great. I recently got a uhm 80, but haven’t used it yet. BTW living in Maine I have NEVER demoed anything before buying other than friends kit, so they have been great for making the leap into a new brand.
Is that a joke? The bottom and top of the Evolution mast is 19mm thick. The part that is always in the water causing drag 100% of the time is 19mm thick. With a 118mm chord. Yes the center is thinner but the rest is the same thickness as the old one. Please explain to me how that mast is going to be faster than a 12.8mm mast with a 100mm chord running the whole length?
How about? “You may wish to respond by disagreeing. That’s fine. But remember to criticize ideas, not people”
You went straight after me the first time Kyle got mad and called me a liar and here you are again immediately trying to discredit me as a whole. I don’t think you’ve ever engaged me in a single conversation about this situation but you’ve always been super fast to tear me down.
Final email from Kyle:
“As a favor, and closure, if you’d be open to removing your blog article, I’d be very grateful. We refinished your mast and I personally rode it. It was smooth and quiet. I’m very sorry you had issues with it but since you returned it for a full refund (I won the credit card chargeback) perhaps you would consider taking that down. We’ve learned a lot as we continue to refine our finishing process, and what to look out for. I am sure that a little asymmetry and a low spots at the foot were not the cause of your vibrations, as my prototype wind mast has the same. But your trailing edge was stiffer than usual, so any imperfections may have caused some vibrations that we’d never seen before because other edges are softer. Again it’s totally quiet now, and the new owner is stoked. It was a painful learning experience, but a good one. Thanks again, Kyle”
So yeah, I wasn’t lying, there was problems. We did exchange 40-50 private emails the first month I had it trying to troubleshoot everything and didn’t get an offer for help. They are still figuring out what to look for and how to QC everything. It doesn’t bother me that equipment has flaws in it. Every manufacturer has these challenges. However, I think it’s outrageous that sharing struggles with this brand results in you getting attacked and run off the site for it.
Sad to see you still don’t get it…sharing information is great, but obsessively jumping at every chance to re-hash and re-litigate your dispute with Cedrus was already getting really old before you left for a while…LET IT GO.
You have a blog where you are able to expound ad nauseam about how badly you were treated by Kyle and by the haters on the PP forum, and the issues you had with the Cedrus mast…and people can follow up there if you want to share more…but you couldn’t leave it at that, because there was a reply and heaven forbid you pass up the chance to launch into it all over again here, not advancing the conversation, but distracting from it.
The fact the multiple people have felt the need to point out that you have some issues and that you have gone too far should tell you something…And I don’t work for or with Kyle, am not his friend, and think he too crossed the line in some of his responses and I feel that is a shame, because I think he has a great product and has always treated me really well…
Similarly, I feel you have a lot to offer this community if you could only stop beating this particular dead horse…link to your blog, continue sharing, recognize when enough is enough
Actually, I want to point out that similar to last time, I did try to stay on topic. I specifically said I wanted to share data and wasn’t comfortable diving in much deeper.
It was, in fact, you guys that immediately sounded the cedrus bashing alarm. No questions about foils or masts, no interest in having a discussion like @FoilLight wanted.
As far as SpokeyDoke using mental health as a way to discredit me: That’s an incredibly f’d up way to treat anyone. You weren’t involved with what happened between Kyle and I. You have no idea what’s going on in my life. You have no right to discredit me or anyone else on this forum by alluding to or insinuating mental health issues based on a stressful situation for Kyle as a business owner and me as rider. That’s an incredibly demeaning, intentionally harmful, and a flat out ignorant way to treat people you disagree with. You ran me out with that last time but I’m much more resilient now that all the mast issues were cleared up and showed that I wasn’t crazy at all.
We have all the opportunity in the world to discuss gear, learn, and move on. You guys are obsessed with the fact that Kyle and I had a falling out. You, actually, need to get over it so that the rest of us can learn from the experience.
Kyle learned how to make his mast better. He learned that wingers might ventilate the Surf mast. He made his QC better. He can now better inform his clients when making purchases. Like he said, it was a painful learning experience for him but he got better because of it. I learned about thickness, chord length, relationships between mast and foil stiffness, pump and glide scenarios, ventilation, got to test stability across I think 14 masts in one summer and amassed almost 3000 miles of data and notes on the subject to share and yes, the Cedrus mast was a large part of that experience so it will be written about again.
So, again, bringing this back in alignment with why I posted in the first place. The AFS 650 and 850 demand speed. They are not slog foils. If you use a slower mast, you will always be pulling those foils down into the stall zone. A faster mast allows those two to essentially lock in to their preferred speed zones where they actually pump and glide reasonably well.
It’s a bit much that someone can’t express their opinion without getting personally attacked.
Not a good look.
People should be encouraged to share their experiences and feedback, not be attacked because it doesn’t align with yours.
I am guilty of not sharing negative gear experiences for this very reason and totally respect Bryan giving the feedback he does and dealing with this nonsense.
I hope he sticks around and continues to contribute.
This is true, at least it’s close without measuring it myself, and if that was clarified the first time around I missed it. And the afs is indeed a nice looking mast and it pains me I haven’t used it yet. (It’s 20degF out), I’m sure it is faster. It generally doesn’t concern me but the point about foils needing speed, particularly the point Gwen makes in the enduro vs. atlas video, makes the speed issue relevant. I use FD more than prone these days and was going to make the afs 80 my FD mast, but I decided I wanted to make the old 980 my FD foil so back to Evo, and evo for winging too. But the afs for prone and sup, where speed and slipperiness are paramount.
I appreciate the support and agree. I really think that when we share negative experiences with our fellow riders we get the chance to find solutions for them. As soon as I shared my negative experiences here I learned so much from the private messages that it brought clarity to the problem really quickly. The manufacturer ended up better off and so did I.
I see you redacted the personal attack. I appreciate it. It’s worth noting that I wouldn’t have responded defending myself if you hadn’t done that. Anyways, I’m moving on and will extend the olive branch. It looks like you really like the Ultra 750 and Silk 850 combo on the 80cm uhm. I would say my 2 foil combo would be the Ultra 750 and Silk 1050 on the 75cm uhm. I hope we can chat about it one day.
I would think the evolution is a great foildrive mast. With the upper section being thicker and a natural place to land the motor I could see a lot of people landing on that decision for a foildrive kit. It will be great to hear your evolution vs 80cm uhm comparison in the future with the enduros since I’ll never have that information and feedback. I also think the enduros are a little more all around user friendly so they might not be as demanding on the mast as the Silks and Ultra are! I should be testing the enduro range this spring when it’s not super cold in the gorge and hopefully we can share notes/thoughts on my 75 uhm , the 80 uhm, and your evolution.
Keep the negatives coming! It took YEARS of negatives on other brands mast stiffness for us to carve out that “stiff mast” market segment for Kyle and now the bigger brands have caught on and foiling is a lot better for it and now we have other things to be negative about like ventilation, resistance, connection fit. Keep the pressure on!
And since we’re talking about negatives let me get my jab in F*** Armstrong that shit is the worst!!!
I think Enduros spanwise comparison to the SILKS can be a more demanding since they have less dihedral and can go faste - also higher aspects -
Size to size comparison (E700 to S850 / E900 to S1050) I think Enduros are a bit more technical, better all rounds but not necesarily easier to use, I think for begginers the SILKs might be a better option - for intermediate to advanced riders the dificiulty won’t be much of an issue between the two models.
Here’s a more detailed comparisong on how I feel on both them -
I should have elaborated further. I think the speed aspect is a bigger issue for the Silks. The 850 wants power/speed but doesn’t have the glide to maintain it vs the enduros which are thinner, faster, better glide. So, a slower mast has a larger impact on a foil like the Silk vs the Enduro which can compensate for the speed difference more readily. Totally agree that based on span, the turns, whitewater, breaching, all of that will likely be more demanding on the mast with the enduro.
