I know it’s early days with both of these new masts just starting to become available. But in case anybody has experience with them, I thought I’d seek input so that I can get in the order queue for one or the other.
Any thoughts on the stiffness of one over the other or just general overall quality?
F-one’s new HM mast is only 14mm thick w/ seems nice and slippy, but being that thin maybe it’s flexy?
The NL V2 tapers to 15.5mm at the fuse end.
Thanks.
Hi Oli, here’s a valid opinion to answer your question:
As seen here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3aCn0fMWCE
Will you ever post a comparison of torsional stiffness like the bending stiffness here? How the V2 Came to Be — NoLimitz Windsurfing Masts
I would consider moving off the Katana onto NLv2 if I could get a better sense of all the tradeoffs
Hi Beepityboppityboop,
It’s my plan to do a post about the bending data presented in that graph soon. I’ll discuss the test and why we have confidence posting those numbers to the world. We won’t be doing a torsional test because of 1) resources (our engineers are focused on bigger more important projects) and 2) it would be difficult to eliminate the length variable from a torsional test, which we have done with the bending test.
I will tell you that torsional stiffness was a big focus for the design of the V2 mast (as written about in the link you shared), and that the mast is very torsionally stiff, as reported by the top riders in the world.
Another piece of information data I’d like to share is a weight to cm graph for all the brands.It will show that the NL V2 is the lightest mast on the market.
The current 14.5mm fone is really thin and stiff, never ventilates. If you ride wings under 90cm span it’s really satisfactory.
Can we swap out adapters like cedrus does now?
unfortunately it still doesn’t allow that
The V2 does not come with a universal adapter. However, Jim Stringfellow, @stringy on Instagram, makes a variety of adapters for our Takuma 3 bolt adapter.
These include: Lift, F one, Unifoil, spg, cloud 9, Cabrinha, and a couple others. We’re working on a video to show the different adapters and how they work with our Takuma 3 bolt mast. I’ll post it here when it’s live. The adapters are well designed and work very well. Although the V2 is not universally compatible, you can use our mast with a lot of great foils through Stringy’s adapters.
NoLimitz,
Great that you’ve posted some real data on mast ‘stiffness’ and drag. There’s a tremendous amount of conflicting information on the subject.
I’ll add to it 
Having been in the market for a mast for some time now, I’ve ridden and measured plenty including your V1 and V2. I would ask, how much stiffness is actually necessary? Having just ridden the Lift X2 back to back with the Axis 19mm Alu, my 90Kg could barely tell any difference and one is at the top of the list, the other in the bottom 1/3. In fact I liked the ride of the “softer” mast better and was ultimately hitting higher speeds through our 3’ chop. I actually had better roll authority and pumping was better.
So for me then anything over 35800 (units) is just fine. I could detect no difference in drag between the two aforementioned masts; Lift X2 17mm x 125mm, Axis 19mm x 120mm.
I’m simply not convinced that mast thickness is more important than wetted surface area regarding drag. It would be great if we could get some real data on what percentage is mast drag of the overall foil system. Everything I’m reading (and feeling) says it’s not worth worrying about.
My finely calibrated feet will ultimately make the decision and I would love to give yours a try at some point in the future to see what I’m missing (too bad there’s no 80-82cm).
Not universal, but a really good mast. I’m testing it right now. (the rest of the gear is good too) It’s made in collaboration with NoLimitz. They have an 80cm, I have the 75 and 87 of it I can take some photos if you need to see a different angle.
Anyone have an idea on who to speak to for EU and especially UK suppliers? The UK company listed doesn’t list the the V1.
Hi Bonafico!
Thanks for your post and for the opportunity for me to discuss the V2’s design more in depth. Have you ridden our V2? There’s a very small amount of V2s out in the world currently, so I’d be surprised if you have. The Proof Is In The Riding, so I highly suggest taking the V2 out for a rip to experience the V2 difference. In response to your question, how much stiffness is actually necessary? The V2 was designed for high level performance. We worked for one of the top foilers in the world, Kane De Wilde, for about a year to dial in the stiffness of the mast.
Kane tested several iterations of V2 prototypes until we arrived on the current stiff version, which he found to have the stiffness he needed to excel in his foil disciplines of winging, prone surfing, and down win SUP foiling. Notably, Kane used the V2 in racing this year around Hawaii, winning both the Maui to Molokai and the Oahu Wetfeet x Voyager race, as seen here: Kane De Wilde wins the Voyager X Wet Feet - by Matt Arderne
We do agree that for increasing stiffness, after a point, a mast becomes stiff enough. There are masts stiffer than ours on the market. But, they are also thicker and substantially heavier. The V2 is very stiff, and it’s stiffness meets the performance standards of top riders such as KD and the rider in the youtube video I shared above.
As to your comment “I’m simply not convinced that mast thickness is more important than wetted surface area regarding drag.” How draggy a mast is results greatly from its thickness. Our riders won’t touch masts thicker than 16.7mm because of their drag. The designer of the V2, Steve Maier, has explained it to me in the following complicated way:
"Chord length affects the Coefficient of Drag of a given section but Cd is usually in the 0.02-0.03 range. If you change the Cd from 0.02 to 0.03 that is nearly meaningless compared to changing the thickness that is measured in mm - 15 or 16 mm thick. That is a number that is 4 orders of magnitude larger than the Cd, so the calculated drag is changing a lot with that larger magnitude number, very little with that 0,0x number.
Drag = Cd*(pV^2)/2A
Cd = Coefficient of Drag
V = Velocity
A = cross sectional area or the frontal area that the water sees as the mast goes through it.
You can see that the biggest influence to Drag is Velocity. Next biggest influence will be Area, as that is a much larger number than Coefficient of Drag. Frontal Area of the foil is the biggest impact on Drag after Velocity, the chord length effects the Cd of the section but that number is around 0.02 or 0.03 compared to thickness of the mast (which drives frontal area) being 14 to 19mm depending on the mast. That is the big driver in how fast a mast is."
He has also explained it to me in the following uncomplicated way: “A simple way to think about this, please try to stick with me here, is try to push something wider than something else through the water. The wider it is, the harder it is to push through the water as you have a huge increase in drag. Stick your hand out the car window – what has more force pushing on you, one finger out or three? Now, if you take two items the same thickness with one being twice as long as the other and push them through the water, the longer one will take very little more force to push along…Nowhere near the drag increase you see with making something thicker.”
The V2’s thickness of 15.5mm was designed for speed.
In response to your last comment, (too bad there’s no 80-82cm), thanks for bringing that up as an opportunity for me to clear up a common misunderstanding about the lengths of NoLimitz foil masts.
The NoLimitz foil mast has four different length options: 72, 78, 85, and 93. The length of the NoLimitz mast does not account for the length of the fuselage adapter. The length of the foil mast is the length from the top of the board adapter down to the top of the fuselage adapter. Therefore, the fuselage adapter adds 4-6cm of length to the total length of the mast depending on the length of the fuselage adapter.
If you want your total length of your foil mast to be 76cm, you should buy a NL 72cm mast. If you want an 82cm mast, you should buy a 78cm mast, and etc. An 82cm mast is the most commonly used size for prone surfing, so that is why we have our 78cm mast available.
I do hope you have the opportunity soon to strap up a V2 to your foil of choice so your finely cailbrated feet can put the mast to the test 
Hi Matt!
Please get in contact with Matt at https://hydrofoilstore.co.uk/ to order a mast! He’s going to be our dealer in the UK. Thanks!
Hey! Thought I’d share some thoughts on mast design and the balance of design parameters.
id order the main design points by priority like this:
-Ventilation
-Stiffness
-Drag
-Weight
Ventilation resistance is top priority for high performance foiling. A mast ventilation usually happens at high speeds or when leaned way over in a turn. This is exactly when you least want a crash.
Stiffness is of course a top priority for control at high loads. A mast like this needs to be stiff enough for the range of front wing and rider combos a customer will run. This means the bar for an aftermarket product needs to be high since you are not restricting the wing options.
Drag is important for the speed and efficiency, but it is less commonly known how big of an effect it has on the stability of the foil. Lower drag masts feel more reliable, smoother, and more pitch stable. This is because the difference in drag between high and low on the mast is less. When you go through a wave on a thick mast, the drag suddenly spikes unsettling the foil.
It is true that in water the chord length has a huge impact to drag but this isn’t the only consideration. Thinner airfoils and longer chords are much more resistant to ventilation and in some cases can even perform better at low speed/Reynolds numbers. A lot of work also goes into designing an airfoil shape suited to your parameters. Tiny changes in the shape can make a large difference in the performance of the mast. This is something that is not easy to deduce from basic measurements of a mast.
Choosing the thickness, chord, taper, and airfoil is a result of understanding and balancing these factors.
Fun note- when strength testing, the main problem we ran into was finding a wing and fuse combo strong enough to withstand the forces. In the end, the mast won over any of the wing/fuse combinations. At some point I will have to custom build a foil strong enough to withstand the force I can output and hopefully reach the limit of the mast!
Thank you NoLimitz and Kane for the detailed responses!
It sounds a bit like comparing two complete foiling setups (with shim-able tails) or quantifying climate change. There are just too many parameters to compare. Thankfully I have my finely calibrated feet to come to a conclusion and they generally tell me that thickness matters more than chord length (then there’s foil section too 
), but only when there’s 25% or less of the mast submerged. That said, even my feet probably couldn’t feel a 2mm difference in thickness, apparently Mister Bennetts doesn’t notice 1.5mm 
Btw, I did just spend 20+ hours on the Omen mast and 850. I’m assuming it’s the same as the NL V2 with a different foot (and the board to fuse length is 80cm, perfect). I’d have to measure but an Omen to Lift adapter may not work because of the screw placements so probably won’t take that route. Thanks for the link Hdip 
Here’s a link to more info on the subject, I’m sure most have read it but good to have everything in one place; https://projectcedrus.com/cedrus-development/the-state-of-the-mast/
My favorite line: “A 12mm thick section with 130mm chord length has the same amount of drag as a 19mmx120mm…”
I was borrowing a V1 NL 78 mast for the past month or so while waiting for the new 80cm HM14 f-one mast to arrive - I’d been pretty stoked on the f-one gear all around and impressed with the setup. All I can really offer to the conversation is that the HM14 has absolutely blown my mind…I was hoping for a little/noticiable improvement and am shocked at how much difference it has made. I feel like I have a brand new setup that is faster, way more responsive, pumps way better, and never even thinks about ventilation. I’m shocked. I thought I’d miss the super light NL…but the weight difference is meaningless.
I’m sure if you are on the current HM f-one mast, there will be marginal difference.
I have not ridden the V2 NL, and they do look like they’ve absolutely raised the bar over V1, so I can’t say how the V2 compares to the HM14. Just that the HM14 is the best feeling mast I’ve ridden in the last 4 years of foiling.
Kyle must be using a different formula than stated above right? Sounds completely off.
Nolimitz’s explanation of drag with chord length being several orders of magnitude less impacting than the thickness matches what I have felt riding different masts. Thank you for chipping in and explaining the development process and drag calculation!
Seems sensible to throw these into a test tank and measure the drag, cabrinha did the colab with the Norwegian university, i think time for someone with the need for a research project to put some data to all of this
(As a lighter person, they are all plenty stiff, I don’t go fast enough to worry about ventilation and so drag is my primary concern)
